<\/p>\n
\n <\/iframe>\n<\/p>\n<p><!-- END-BLOCK(acast)[0] --><\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><span class=\"has-underline\">Brazilians will head<\/span> to the polls on Sunday in one of the most consequential presidential elections of the last decade. The run-off election will determine the future of the largest democracy in Latin America and the fate of the Amazon rainforest.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Incumbent President Luiz In\u00e1cio Lula da Silva is facing off against Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro, the son of former President Jair Bolsonaro. The elder Bolsonaro is currently on house arrest for his role in a failed 2023 military coup that intended to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/brazilian-police-arrest-five-alleged-plot-kill-president-lula-stage-coup-2024-11-19\/\">assassinate<\/a> Lula, his vice president, and a Supreme Court justice. Despite his father\u2019s attempted coup, Flavio Bolsonaro is currently the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.stimson.org\/2026\/brazils-election-exposes-the-limits-of-the-donroe-doctrine\/\">frontrunner<\/a>, after coming out slightly ahead in the first round of voting.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cIf they don\u2019t win this election, then not only is Jair going to stay in jail, most likely, but Eduardo, Fl\u00e1vio\u2019s brother and Jair\u2019s son, who is in self-exile in the U.S., he has a multiyear prison sentence for his actions in the U.S. lobbying against Brazil\u2019s foreign interests. He\u2019s not going to be able to go home if they lose this election,\u201d says <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/staff\/andrew-fishman\/\">Andrew Fishman<\/a>, a Rio de Janeiro-based investigative journalist. \u201cSo they\u2019re really just willing to do whatever they can to make sure that they win because this is their only get-out-of-jail-free card.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Sound familiar? This week on The Intercept Briefing, host Jessica Washington speaks with Fishman, president and co-founder of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.intercept.com.br\/\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/www.intercept.com.br\/\">The Intercept Brasil<\/a>, about what\u2019s at stake for Brazil and the planet in Sunday\u2019s election.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cIt\u2019s a global election. The voters in Brazil will be deciding the future of humanity,\u201d Fishman tells The Intercept. Jair Bolsonaro oversaw significant deforestation of the Amazon rainforest, leaving the ecological and climate linchpin in danger of becoming a \u201csavanna.\u201d Now, he argues, his son can finish the job. \u201cYou\u2019re going to have an international migration crisis,\u201d says Fishman.\u00a0\u201cIt\u2019s really self-defeating because the cattle ranchers are his base. They are the ones that are wanting to do the things that will end their future profitability \u2014 the future existence of their business.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">President Donald Trump has taken a particular interest in the race, as he seeks to expand U.S. influence and control across the Western Hemisphere. \u201cBrazil \u2014 as the biggest economy, the biggest country, the most powerful entity in the hemisphere besides the United States \u2014 if Brazil falls, then the rest falls in line,\u201d says Fishman. \u201cBut if Brazil remains as this big island of resistance in the middle of the continent, it really messes up [the Trump administration\u2019s] plans, doesn\u2019t it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Big Tech is also looming large over the race. \u201cThere\u2019s all these pieces of circumstantial evidence that suggest that Meta is interfering in this election, and they have every incentive to do so. They will have a much better regulatory environment if Fl\u00e1vio wins because of Fl\u00e1vio\u2019s submissiveness to U.S. interests and his willingness to play ball with whatever Trump tells him to,\u201d adds Fishman.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In a request for comment, Meta said, \u201cMeta applies the same rules to every candidate, every party and every political viewpoint in Brazil, as we do in elections around the world. We do not suppress content to disadvantage one side, and we do not give preferential treatment to any side. Each of the incidents cited by Lula\u2019s campaign has a straightforward, documented explanation. \u2026 Brazilian voters deserve facts, not a political narrative built by combining unrelated technical issues. Meta will continue to enforce its rules, comply with Brazilian electoral law, fix mistakes when they occur and provide a level playing field for everyone who uses our services.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As U.S. leaders attempt to mold Brazil into a satellite state, Fishman argues the United States is slowly becoming more and more like its southern neighbor.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">\u201cIt\u2019s not that Brazil is becoming more like the United States, it\u2019s that the United States is becoming more like Brazil,\u201d says Fishman. \u201cYou have just shrinking spheres of democracy while oligarchs have increasing power and control and are able to do what they want and insist on decisions for the country that are bad for all of the society and the people, but good for their individual interests.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For more, listen to the full conversation of The Intercept Briefing on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-intercept-briefing\/id1195206601\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/2js8lwDRiK1TB4rUgiYb24?si=e3ce772344ee4170\">Spotify<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/playlist?list=PLW0Gy9pTgVnvgbvfd63A9uVpks3-uwudj\">YouTube,<\/a> or wherever you listen to podcasts.<\/p>\n<h2 id=\"h-transcript\" class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Jessica Washington:<\/strong> Welcome to The Intercept Briefing, I\u2019m Jessica Washington, politics reporter at The Intercept.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Akela Lacy:<\/strong> I\u2019m Akela Lacy, senior politics reporter at The Intercept.?Jessie, what do our listeners need to know about this week?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been following a pretty disturbing story that\u2019s actually centered on a campaign ad. Ohio gubernatorial candidate Vivek Ramaswamy <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wlwt.com\/article\/amy-acton-ohio-governor-race-election-ad-mother\/74197605\">released<\/a> what I would argue is the ugliest campaign ad of a dark season.?That is, of course, a season of campaign ads filled with Islamophobic, transphobic, sexist rhetoric, and racist rhetoric as well. But in the ad, the mother of Democratic candidate Amy Acton accuses her daughter of being a liar, claiming \u201cshe\u2019s lied her whole life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">?Now, what makes this really dark is that Acton was <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2026\/10\/21\/us\/politics\/ramaswamy-acton-ad-ohio.html\">removed from her mother\u2019s care<\/a> at 12 years old, after she alleges she was raped by her mother\u2019s then-40-year-old husband.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AL<\/strong>: That\u2019s horrible. Has Acton responded?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Acton responded to the attack ad <a href=\"https:\/\/www.wlwt.com\/article\/amy-acton-ohio-governor-race-election-ad-mother\/74197605\">saying<\/a>, \u201cMy brother Phil and I endured abuse, hunger, and neglect. We were often kept in a dark basement, were frequent-fliers with child protective services, and lived in fear of our birth mother\u2019s violent and erratic temper. I\u2019ve always known that she was deeply sick and unwell, and it\u2019s sad to see Vivek Ramaswamy exploit her all for his own political gain.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">?This is one, as I\u2019ve said, of the darkest campaign ads in a really horrifying season of campaign ads.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Akela, I know you\u2019ve been tracking another big election story this week on a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/06\/20\/steny-hoyer-aipac-j-street-israel\/\">beat<\/a> you\u2019ve <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2022\/11\/03\/democratic-consultants-aipac-summer-lee\/\">covered<\/a> for a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/10\/24\/aipac-spending-congress-elections-israel\/\">really long time<\/a>, and that\u2019s [American Israel Public Affairs Committee].<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AL<\/strong>: So we have been covering extensively the way that AIPAC\u2019s strategy has changed over the last few election cycles since they started spending directly on campaigns. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If you\u2019ve been following our reporting, you know that we\u2019ve written a lot about both their super PAC, United Democracy Project, and this shell PAC strategy where there were a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/05\/18\/super-pac-election-spending-midterms-aipac-ai-crypto\/\">number of different groups<\/a> that popped up throughout the midterm season, took money from AIPAC, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/02\/12\/aipac-illinois-kat-abughazaleh-congress-pal-pac\/\">spent against<\/a> candidates that AIPAC didn\u2019t like, and then \u2014 per filings that came out this week \u2014 shut down and gave all their money back to AIPAC.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So the idea being that, they had been trying to shield what was an <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/12\/16\/laura-fine-illinois-primary-aipac-donors\/\">increasingly<\/a> toxic <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/04\/03\/bernie-sanders-aipac-israel-weapons-sales\/\">reputation<\/a> amid the ongoing genocide in Gaza from creating <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/07\/21\/connie-chan-san-francisco-aipac-pelosi\/\">backlash<\/a> against their activity in these races.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/jewishinsider.com\/2026\/10\/aipac-end-candidate-endorsements-pac-contributions\/\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/jewishinsider.com\/2026\/10\/aipac-end-candidate-endorsements-pac-contributions\/\">Jewish Insider<\/a> scooped on Wednesday that AIPAC announced that it will no longer endorse candidates or give PAC contributions through its AIPAC PAC. Now, this doesn\u2019t mean that they will stop spending on elections. Their super PAC, United Democracy Project, will continue to spend, as it has been <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/05\/19\/thomas-massie-loses-election-results-trump-aipac-kentucky\/\">pouring<\/a> record <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/08\/05\/michigan-missouri-primary-results-el-sayed\/\">amounts of money<\/a> into various races. But this is getting a lot of attention, both from the left and I would say from the center.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The left, Justice Democrats in particular, and candidates who are no longer in Congress, but I saw <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/06\/26\/jamaal-bowman-primary-aipac-latimer\/\">Jamaal Bowman<\/a> talking about this, saying that this is the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/09\/25\/progressive-justice-democrats-congress-ice\/\">culmination of the fight<\/a> that the left has been putting up against AIPAC in elections. I don\u2019t know that I would categorize this as a win necessarily, considering that the super PAC seems like it\u2019s going to continue to spend a lot of money. But that was the big news in my campaign finance world this week.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> You\u2019ve done a lot of really interesting coverage of how AIPAC is moving their money around through these different PACs and trying to get around the fact that people really dislike AIPAC, and that it has really tarnished the reputation of candidates who take this money. Obviously, this is a maneuver to get rid of the reputational harm of AIPAC money while still giving people AIPAC money.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I\u2019ve actually been tracking a story completely off our election cycle, and that\u2019s what\u2019s going on in France. I know we touched on that a couple weeks ago but, really, these protests have taken on another life.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">?For those who don\u2019t know, in France, there were these protests that were initially launched by students primarily in the suburbs concerned about educational inequality. This meant staffing shortages and poor facilities. But it has exploded into a nationwide uprising about the cost of living and broader economic inequality.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, perhaps unsurprisingly, and not to bring it too quickly back to the U.S., but President Donald Trump has used this as an opportunity to rail against immigrants. So despite the fact that there is <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/france-riots-trump-immigration-claims-f6c26eb78303dbf5a904bd41e0728052\">zero indication<\/a> any of the violence has been spurred on by immigrants. At a campaign <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/live\/trump-midterm-elections-news-updates-10-19-2026\">rally <\/a>on Monday, he told the crowd, \u201cIf Europe doesn\u2019t close its borders and bring the criminals out, like the people that are protesting, Europe is finished.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">?So yeah, that\u2019s just one other example of how Donald Trump has inserted himself into international politics.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AL: <\/strong>Trump has also inserted himself into politics in a different region in the world. We have the Brazilian elections for president heading to a runoff this week. I know you spoke, Jessie, to Andrew Fishman, an investigative reporter and president and co-founder of The Intercept Brasil, about those elections.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong>? It\u2019s a really interesting election with a ton of parallels to the political situation in the United States, as well as, as you\u2019ve pointed out, a ton of influence from the United States. On Sunday, Brazil will have a run-off presidential election that will determine the future of not only Latin America\u2019s largest democracy,?but also \u2014 and this is really important \u2014 the fate of the Amazon rainforest, and one could argue, the planet.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is the first presidential election since former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro was imprisoned on house arrest in an attempted military coup, a sentence that his son, the current frontrunner, Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro has promised to overturn.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">?I talked to Andrew about the media landscape, the history of military leadership, and the outside influences that have made this a tight race, despite the fact that the perceived frontrunner is running on freeing the man who attempted a coup years prior.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">President Luiz In\u00e1cio Lula de Silva is running for reelection. He\u2019s accused both President Donald Trump and Meta of attempting to sway the election in favor of Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Intercept reached out to Meta for comment, and Meta denied interfering in the election process, saying they do not suppress content to disadvantage one side or give preferential treatment to the other.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But this is a really interesting conversation with Andrew, and I\u2019m excited for people to get to hear it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AL:<\/strong> As am I. Let\u2019s hear it.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Andrew, welcome to The Intercept Briefing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>Andrew Fishman:<\/strong> Hi, thanks for having me.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> On Sunday, Brazilians will head to the polls in a runoff presidential election between right-wing senator Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro, son of former President Jair Bolsonaro, and incumbent left-wing President Luiz In\u00e1cio Lula da Silva to determine the leadership of Latin America\u2019s largest democracy and biggest economy.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, this is the first presidential election since former President Jair Bolsonaro\u2019s supporters <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cfr.org\/articles\/images-show-extent-brazils-capitol-riots\">stormed the Capitol in 2023<\/a> and attempted to overturn the election results. Now, Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro, his son and ally, is widely considered to be the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.stimson.org\/2026\/brazils-election-exposes-the-limits-of-the-donroe-doctrine\/\">frontrunner<\/a> after coming out slightly ahead in the first round of voting.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But as of Tuesday, his lead in the polls has been <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/bolsonaros-lead-over-lula-narrows-ahead-brazil-runoff-polls-show-2026-10-19\/\">narrowing<\/a>. Andrew, big picture, what are the major issues at play in this election on Sunday?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> If you want to be really direct about it, it\u2019s the future of humanity.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You have one candidate who\u2019s been responsible for record <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/sustainability\/cop\/brazils-tight-election-raises-questions-over-fate-its-climate-finance-push-2026-10-08\/\">reductions<\/a> of deforestation in the Amazon; and you have another one who\u2019s saying, let\u2019s chop it all down, and farmers should be able to do <a href=\"https:\/\/thehill.com\/homenews\/ap\/ap-international\/ap-future-of-amazon-rainforest-policies-at-stake-in-brazilian-presidential-election\/\">whatever they want<\/a> on their land. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And under his father\u2019s leadership, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/07\/06\/brazil-amazon-rainforest-indigenous-conservation-agribusiness-ranching\/\">deforestation in the Amazon soared<\/a>, as in the other regions in the area. Scientists think that there\u2019s a major tipping point that we could be on the cusp of, that if we were to reach that, the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.audubon.org\/magazine\/amazon-could-soon-transition-dry-savanna-ecosystem\">Amazon will turn into a savanna<\/a>. There would be no going back from that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">If that were to happen, all of the <a href=\"https:\/\/otca.org\/en\/publicacao\/flying-rivers-and-protected-areas-the-role-of-the-amazon-rainforest-in-south-american-rainfall\/\">rain in South America<\/a> comes from the Amazon, basically. [That would affect] the cattle ranching that\u2019s doing the deforestation, no more of the soy that\u2019s doing the deforestation \u2014 people would have trouble feeding themselves. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/cities\/2017\/nov\/28\/sao-paulo-water-amazon-deforestation\">S\u00e3o Paulo<\/a> would probably run out of water, which it has done in the past.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s very precarious. So you would be having mass refugee influxes, migrations. I really do think that this election is on that scale; it\u2019s a global election. The voters in Brazil will be deciding the future of humanity, very possibly.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> To your point, his father, former President Jair Bolsonaro\u2019s administration oversaw significant deforestation of the rainforest, which houses <a href=\"https:\/\/wwf.panda.org\/discover\/knowledge_hub\/where_we_work\/amazon\/about_the_amazon\/\">10 percent<\/a> of all [known] species on Earth, and his son appears to be moving in that same direction.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Fl\u00e1vio told reporters in August that he <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/brazil-elections-amazon-lula-flavio-bolsonaro-eacb0832cd11cf40b0b2a24481439d1f\">did not believe in climate change<\/a> and that \u201cthe best way to address environmental issues is what we did during the Bolsonaro administration,\u201d referring, of course, to the senior Bolsonaro\u2019s administration. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What is at stake for climate change when we\u2019re talking about this massive deforestation that could potentially be happening if Fl\u00e1vio wins?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> Every ecosystem in South America is interconnected and in the world. If the Amazon collapses and turns into savanna and the rainfall stops, and you have this massive drying out of the continent \u2014 which is one of the major exporters of food in the world \u2014 you\u2019re going to have all of those issues locally, and that\u2019s going to impact local markets and everything. You\u2019re going to have an international migration crisis.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But on top of that, we have no idea what the ecological knock-on effects of that could be. With that, we could be having a more rapid increase in polar ice cap melting. With the temperatures increasing, it could be exacerbating the <a href=\"https:\/\/e360.yale.edu\/features\/amoc-climate-change\">death of the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Current<\/a>, which is the thing that would put Europe back into an ice age. It\u2019s very possible that\u2019s already happening right now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We\u2019re at this really tenuous moment for the climate, for the Earth, for humanity. And you have a candidate that says very proudly [he] doesn\u2019t believe in any of that and wants to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.motherjones.com\/politics\/2026\/10\/flavio-bolsonaros-brazils-election-victory-runoff-lula-climate-amazon-deforestation\/\">slash all mechanisms<\/a> that are used to have more responsible management of land and prevent this massive catastrophe in just this proudly Luddite sort of way.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s really self-defeating because the cattle ranchers are his base. They are the ones that are wanting to do the things that will end their future profitability \u2014 the future existence of their business. It\u2019s really self-defeating in this way for the Brazilians, and these very short-term benefits for massive long-term costs.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.riotimesonline.com\/brazil-deforestation-cut-ibre-study-october-2026\/\">estimates<\/a> that the impact that the Amazon has for the global economy is in the hundreds of billions of dollars a year, and that benefit is far larger than the profits that they get out of these extractive industries that they do with farming and mining. It\u2019s really hard to overstate the potential impacts that this could have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Is that urgency resonating with voters?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> Absolutely not. That is not what people are voting about, unfortunately. It\u2019s what the people living in the heavy agricultural regions \u2014 where their local economy depends on that \u2014 they\u2019re voting for Fl\u00e1vio for that reason. But the people who are voting against him, yes, there\u2019s many people that care about the Amazon and want to preserve it, but it\u2019s not the issue that\u2019s being discussed day to day on TV, in the news, on the streets.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">People are talking more about more human issues of <a href=\"https:\/\/abcnews.com\/International\/wireStory\/corruption-top-concern-brazilian-voters-ahead-runoff-bolsonaro-137370744\">corruption<\/a> and who has better communication, security, economics. They\u2019re not talking about the Amazon, unfortunately.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> That\u2019s hardly surprising in the U.S. context, which I\u2019m a little bit more acquainted with. Certainly climate, the environment, have never been top issues for voters, even if they\u2019ve resonated more so with young people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I did want to talk about another issue in the election, and that is the fate of Jair Bolsonaro. His son, Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro, has promised to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/run-brazils-presidency-flavio-bolsonaro-tests-staying-power-his-fathers-legacy-2026-09-28\/\">free him<\/a>. Jair Bolsonaro has been imprisoned on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/brazils-bolsonaro-remain-under-house-arrest-2026-07-03\/\">house arrest since 2025<\/a> for plotting a military coup. How is that particular campaign promise landing with the electorate in Brazil, and are you at all surprised by the public\u2019s response?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> It\u2019s very clear that for the Bolsonaros, this is an all-or-nothing for them. If they don\u2019t win this election, then not only is Jair going to stay in jail, most likely, but <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/run-brazils-presidency-flavio-bolsonaro-tests-staying-power-his-fathers-legacy-2026-09-28\/\">Eduardo<\/a>, Fl\u00e1vio\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/08\/13\/eduardo-bolsonaro-pro-trump-son-brazils-president-track-ambassador-u-s\/\">brother<\/a> and Jair\u2019s son, who is in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lemonde.fr\/en\/international\/article\/2025\/03\/20\/jair-bolsonaro-s-son-shields-himself-from-brazilian-justice-by-moving-to-the-us_6739338_4.html#\">self-exile in the U.S.<\/a>, he has a multiyear prison sentence for his actions in the U.S. lobbying against Brazil\u2019s foreign interests. He\u2019s not going to be able to go home if they lose this election.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">For them, it\u2019s been very clear, and they\u2019ve even said it in moments, that\u2019s what this is about for them: their ability to get their father out of prison and to get themselves off the hook. Also, if you\u2019re elected president, the investigations on things you did before you got elected, they go away.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThey\u2019re really just willing to do whatever they can to make sure that they win, because this is their only get-out-of-jail-free card.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So then Fl\u00e1vio\u2019s off the hook, and he\u2019s so wrapped up in so many different schemes and accusations and <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/brazil-flavio-bolsonaro-investigation-banco-master-movie-f534de4498df7d8b509127fcee2b535d\">active investigations<\/a>, some of which that we have revealed, including U.S. and abroad and offshore bank accounts and money laundering and potential connections to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.intercept.com.br\/2026\/10\/21\/maiores-doadores-flavio-bolsonaro-denunciados-corrupcao-contrabando\/\">organized crime<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2019\/04\/10\/opinion\/brazil-bolsonaro-militias.html\">militias<\/a>. So they\u2019re really just willing to do whatever they can to make sure that they win because this is their only get-out-of-jail-free card. To do that, they\u2019re going to completely change the structure of the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lemonde.fr\/en\/international\/article\/2026\/10\/11\/in-brazil-bolsonaro-clan-targets-supreme-federal-court_6758467_4.html\">Supreme Court<\/a>, and they\u2019ll be able to put in a majority even without impeachment. They already have the Senate and the lower house of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/right-wing-wave-brazils-congress-boosts-bolsonaro-camp-ahead-presidential-runoff-2026-10-05\/\">Congress<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They would control all of the executive branch. They have the majority of governorships that are in their coalition, and they run the local police. And the executive has control over the federal police and all the investigative and regulatory agencies. So they would have just absolute lockstep control over every branch of government federally and most of local government as well.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It would be a democratically elected coup.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> And voters, do they care about that? Do they care about the preservation of democracy? Is this ranking as a top election issue?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> It\u2019s always double speak, right? Both sides say that they\u2019re preserving democracy. The Bolsonaristas say that Lula and the Supreme Court are running a judicial dictatorship right now because they were getting censored and put in jail for actively plotting a coup, which included active <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/brazilian-police-arrest-five-alleged-plot-kill-president-lula-stage-coup-2024-11-19\/\">planning to assassinate Lula<\/a> after he was elected, his vice president after he was elected, <em>and<\/em> a member of the Supreme Court. So that\u2019s what they\u2019re [Jair Bolsonaro and military officials]<a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/brazil-coup-bolsonaro-prison-b43ad0f4b338931e4d195615232b43b0\"> in jail for<\/a>. That\u2019s why they were getting pushback, and they\u2019re saying that having the pushback against that is a dictatorship.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">In the meantime, you have the Lulistas who are saying that what the Bolsonaros want to do is a coup because they actively have said year after year, over and over again, \u201cWe want a coup. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.thenation.com\/article\/world\/brazil-election-lula-flavio-bolsonaro-workers-rights\/\">We love the military dictatorship<\/a>. The military dictatorship was great! When we were torturing everybody, that was good.\u201d Jair said, \u201cWhen I\u2019m elected, we\u2019re going to take a machine gun and shoot down all of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2018\/oct\/22\/brazils-jair-bolsonaro-says-he-would-put-army-on-streets-to-fight\">the leftists<\/a>, the <em>petistas<\/em>, the Workers\u2019 Party [<em>Partido dos Trabalhadores<\/em>] supporters.\u201d <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Remember that the military government was going alive and strong into the \u201980s. It happened in \u201964, and it went through the \u201980s. So it\u2019s very recent. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The people that are in his orbit, they were actually part of the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/03\/18\/jair-bolsonaro-family-militias-gangs-brazil\/\">military coup government<\/a> until very recently. And I think that Lula supporters are very, very concerned about this. They really do care. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Bolsonarista supporters, which are about 30 percent lockstep \u2014 same as it is in the U.S. with Trump \u2014 they\u2019re just in <a href=\"https:\/\/bylinetimes.com\/2026\/10\/02\/digital-armies-and-disinformation-how-big-tech-is-hitting-brazils-upcoming-election\/\">their own information ecosystem<\/a>, and they want Bolsonaro to win. It doesn\u2019t matter, and anything that he does is good because it\u2019s him.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThey\u2019re just in their own information ecosystem, and they want Bolsonaro to win.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s not, there are people that support the Workers\u2019 Party, and there are people that support Bolsonaro. The Bolsonaro movement is essentially anti Workers\u2019 Party, anti-<em>petismo<\/em>. The Bolsonaros have been seen as the greatest vehicle for getting rid of the Workers\u2019 Party, which has been so hard to do because they\u2019ve been so popular because of all the policies they\u2019ve put into place over the years.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But you\u2019ve had the media saying for 30 years now, just drilling it in, that the PT [<em>Partido dos Trabalhadores<\/em>] equals corruption, the PT invented corruption. The PT is everything that is bad in Brazil, and anything that is not the PT is everything that is good in Brazil. You\u2019ve had a <a href=\"https:\/\/cepr.net\/publications\/media-bias-in-brazil\/\">generation of this narrative<\/a> being repeated over and over in all these different instances that it\u2019s really hard to shake.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Could you talk more about that legacy of military leadership in Brazil, and for Brazilians, how they feel about it on the day to day? I recognize that it\u2019s a very large country, as we\u2019ve mentioned multiple times. I assume not everyone feels the same way, but I am curious about that legacy and how people respond to it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> Brazil has been a country of negotiated solutions. So when they were the last in the Western Hemisphere to abolish slavery in 1888, it was not some sort of civil war or uprising. It was a negotiation: \u201cOK, I think it\u2019s time that we do this, but let\u2019s just make sure that everyone that did own slaves is in the best possible situation, and let\u2019s make sure that we have some sort of semi-slavery going on afterwards.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It was really the same thing with the dictatorship. It was a moment where the economy was going into the can. It was very unpopular. It wasn\u2019t having the economic glory years of before, and so they said, \u201cAll right, we\u2019ll step back. We\u2019ll let you run some elections, but we\u2019re going to make sure that we\u2019re never held accountable, that we\u2019re able to continue exercising power in the way we want.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">As part of that, they were able to help control the narrative. So during the military dictatorship, there was an impression \u2014 and it continues today \u2014 that there wasn\u2019t corruption. The reason why they had that impression, it was actually <em>very<\/em> corrupt, very corrupt. But the impression exists because there was <a href=\"https:\/\/www.americasquarterly.org\/article\/50-years-ago-brazil-virtually-legalized-torture-and-censorship\/\">censorship of the media<\/a>, so the corruption that existed just wasn\u2019t exposed.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When the Lula government came into power the first time in the early 2000s, they started making the <a href=\"https:\/\/english.elpais.com\/international\/2024-01-08\/a-year-after-the-attempted-coup-in-brazil-lulas-relationship-with-the-military-remains-tense.html\">federal police<\/a> stronger. They made the <a href=\"https:\/\/g1.globo.com\/politica\/noticia\/2026\/09\/04\/crise-master-no-stf-lula-volta-a-defender-reforma-do-poder-judiciario.ghtml\">judiciary<\/a> stronger and more independent. They increased the ability of the federal government to investigate and uphold the rule of law. As a result of that, many corruption schemes started coming out of the woodwork that were legacy of the military leadership.\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cIt was the business elite together with the military that did the coup and ran everything.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It was called a civil military dictatorship, technically, in Brazil, because it was the business elite together with the military that did the coup and ran everything. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So that business elite didn\u2019t change. It\u2019s still the same families. They were running the same corruption schemes back then. They were running it through re-democratization. Whether it\u2019s a right-wing government or a left-wing government in power, they\u2019re making sure that their interests are being served. That corruption is just this constant throughline. People don\u2019t really see that because that\u2019s not how it\u2019s presented in the media and in the day-to-day in communications.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I know for a fact that there\u2019s lots of people that really want us to go back to the dictatorship. There are people that really want us to go back to the monarchy because they see it as a better, simpler time when things were the way that they should be. Everyone was in the right place and things were safer and everything was just better, this idealized past, \u201cMake Brazil Great Again\u201d sort of thing. How far back do you want to go?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Then there are the people that, like <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2016\/05\/19\/watch-first-interview-with-brazils-president-dilma-rousseff-since-the-senates-impeachment-vote\/\">Dilma Rousseff<\/a>, who was the successor to Lula after a second term \u2014 who fought against the dictatorship \u2014 that are currently active in politics, that are still around, and they were tortured. Their friends were murdered. They know exactly what a dictatorship means and what it means for people like them, anyone that stands against those entrenched powers of the old elites that go back for centuries.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why you have a lot of older voters tend to vote PT [Workers\u2019 Party] because they came up with the workers\u2019 struggle with re-democratization. They understand what that means. It\u2019s this interesting dynamic now where you have more younger people that are starting to tip <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/americas\/why-some-young-brazilians-voters-are-abandoning-lula-2026-06-24\/\">more to the right<\/a> because they don\u2019t have this memory.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They don\u2019t remember what it was like in the \u201980s in the northeast when there was water shortages and food shortages, and the standard of living was so much lower. You have this new narrative being rewritten in real time online.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cYou have more younger people that are starting to tip more to the right because they don\u2019t have this memory.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> The parallels to the United States and Brazil are just incredibly striking in what you\u2019re saying. This kind of the \u201cMake America Great Again\u201d movement and the Make Brazil Great Again, even if they\u2019re not using those exact same phrases. There are just so many points of similarity, especially with what we\u2019ve seen with youth even in the United States, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/07\/18\/nick-fuentes-america-first-conference\/\">some of whom<\/a> have taken a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/12\/31\/nick-shirley-videos-minnesota-somali-day-cares-fraud-claims\/\">rightward tilt<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I want to get into the relationship between Brazil and the U.S. because that\u2019s obviously been such a big issue in this election. In a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2026\/sep\/25\/lula-says-trump-wants-to-colonise-and-capture-brazils-resources-by-meddling-in-election\">Lula ad<\/a> earlier this month, his campaign called Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro Trump\u2019s candidate, arguing that, \u201cWhat Trump wants is to colonize Brazil, take our riches, steal our future, and leave us in the dust.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Now, this comes after President Lula confirmed that <a href=\"https:\/\/www.bbc.com\/news\/articles\/c4g3dv60ry9o\">Brazil denied visas<\/a> to two U.S. officials over election interference concerns. The State Department has denied any claims of election meddling, telling reporters, \u201cAny insinuation of a \u2018ploy\u2019 to undermine a democratic nation\u2019s election is a baseless lie.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Andrew, is there any evidence that the Trump administration is attempting to sway this election? Does it veer into election interference as we generally understand it?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> The answer is <a href=\"https:\/\/jacobin.com\/2026\/10\/brazil-bolsonaro-trump-election-interference\">oh God, yes<\/a>. So much so it\u2019s overwhelming. Overwhelming evidence, and it\u2019s the same thing they\u2019ve been doing across the region, which is why there\u2019s been this <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/latin-america-crime-immigration-election-backlash-politics-205da59422a964503b6537b776e6d041\">rightward swing<\/a> in elections across Latin America. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s why they\u2019re so interested in Brazil right now because Brazil \u2014 as the biggest economy, the biggest country, the most powerful entity in the hemisphere besides the United States \u2014 if Brazil falls, then the rest falls in line.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But if Brazil remains as this big island of resistance in the middle of the continent, it really messes up their plans, doesn\u2019t it? The interference has been done on many levels. The reality is that we don\u2019t know the full extent of it, and we won\u2019t know the full extent of it for years. We\u2019re still learning about things that happened in 1964 with the U.S. role in the coup.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s dirty tricks happening that\u2019s being run through intelligence agencies. That\u2019s absolutely positive. There\u2019s very, very strong signs that they\u2019re using U.S. companies, Big Techs like Meta, who\u2019s been getting a lot of attention \u2014 a lot of flak \u2014 lately because of clear signs that its <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nbcnews.com\/world\/south-america\/brazil-lula-wins-electoral-court-challenge-meta-alleged-bolsonaro-bias-rcna603835\">algorithm is favoring Bolsonaro<\/a> and suppressing Lula.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Multiple instances that they even admit happens, \u201cOh, but no, but it was just a mistake. It was just a mistake.\u201d Meta and the Big Techs in the U.S., they\u2019re really concerned about what a Lula government could do for their profits. Maybe Lula wants to have more sovereignty and control over what they\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The Brazilian government doesn\u2019t even know how much money they make in Brazil, the Big Techs. They just know how much money they send out through the tax bills that they pay and the money they send out of the country. The Big Techs in the U.S. are really concerned about getting their access on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cfr.org\/articles\/us-critical-minerals-dilemma-what-know\">rare earths<\/a> and on lithium reserves, which Brazil has the largest <a href=\"https:\/\/www.dw.com\/en\/brazil-is-set-to-cut-into-chinas-rare-earths-dominance\/a-77344696\">deposits of rare earths<\/a> after China. This whole trade war with China, Brazil becomes much more important. It\u2019s a huge market.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So you have one candidate that is just completely submissive \u2014 like painfully, embarrassingly submissive \u2014 to U.S. interests. So much so that one of his former closest allies, a general, <a href=\"https:\/\/jovempan.com.br\/politica\/santos-cruz-critica-submissao-voluntaria-da-familia-bolsonaro-a-trump-vigarice\/\">Santos Cruz<\/a>, who\u2019s a very famous well-known general, he came out recently and said, \u201cI\u2019m a conservative. I\u2019m right-wing. This is not conservatism. This is not right wing. This is just \u2018voluntary submissiveness.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cYou have one candidate that is just completely submissive \u2014 like painfully, embarrassingly submissive \u2014 to U.S. interests.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They\u2019re just absolutely scamming Brazilians with this level of supplicancy that we\u2019ve never seen before, that the military dictatorship even didn\u2019t do, which was hand in glove with the U.S. interests. This is completely next level, and it\u2019s something that obviously the left is very concerned about.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But people like Santos Cruz, Brazilians that actually believe in Brazilian sovereignty, and that it\u2019s important for Brazil to be able to pursue its own interests rather than the interests of foreign powers \u2014 they\u2019re very concerned about that, which is, some segments of the elite.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Whenever you have a submissive local government in an imperialist relationship, there are people that benefit. There are local people that will get special contracts, that will get special treatment. They\u2019ll be able to crush their enemies through these relationships. And that\u2019s what they\u2019re doing in Bolivia and in Peru and in Ecuador right now.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cWhenever you have a submissive local government in an imperialist relationship, there are people that benefit.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What they did in <a href=\"https:\/\/newrepublic.com\/post\/213359\/trump-billions-venezuelan-oil-revenue-missing\">Venezuela<\/a>, where they just came in and took all of the oil and said, \u201cAll right. We\u2019re going to take 90 percent of the oil profits, and we\u2019ll give you a couple billion a year.\u201d People are seeing this in Brazil. They see what Trump has done. And they\u2019re still saying, \u201cWell, we like Bolsonaro, so we\u2019re going with Bolsonaro. I\u2019m sure it\u2019ll be fine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s a massive issue, and I really, I don\u2019t think we know how bad it will be and how submissive they\u2019ll be this time around. Because it always is the case that, with right-wing authoritarian governments, it\u2019s the second term where they really take off whatever mask was left and decide, \u201cWe have a mandate and we can do whatever we want.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You saw it in the U.S. with Trump. They saw it in Turkey with Erdo?an. They saw it in Hungary with Orb\u00e1n. They saw it in India <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2021\/02\/27\/india-climate-activists-twitter-google-facebook\/\">with Modi<\/a>. This is what always happens. It\u2019s the second term where they say, \u201cOK. We showed them who we are, and everyone said it\u2019s fine.\u201d They\u2019re able to smoke out all of their rivals in the first term. They map them out, and so when the second time comes around, it\u2019s just bang, bang, bang. Let\u2019s get rid of them. Let\u2019s maximize our power and do whatever we want.\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cWith right-wing authoritarian governments, it\u2019s the second term where they really take off whatever mask was left. \u2026 It\u2019s the second term where they say, \u2018OK. We showed them who we are, and everyone said it\u2019s fine.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The result\u2019s not going to be positive for Brazil. That\u2019s the thing: If I were a Brazilian billionaire \u2014 which I am not \u2014 it would be in my personal interest for Brazil to follow the economic path that the Lula government is following, much more than what Bolsonaro is proposing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Lula\u2019s not some left-wing radical. He\u2019s center-right. He was left, then he became center-left, and he\u2019s moving ever more to the right. This last election, his <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/jair-bolsonaro-caribbean-brazil-sao-paulo-elections-851a9e6102002c72734b941f832ac924\">vice presidential<\/a> candidate was his former presidential rival, the center-right guy. They\u2019re very much doing what the big banks want. They\u2019re helping the big agro get what they want. They give tons of subsidies to major industries. But the thing that they do, they take a little bit of that money, and they spread it around to the poorest people with public services with access to education, with some cash transfers. We\u2019re talking about 60 bucks or 80 bucks a month to families, and that is what is making the economy grow. Because if you don\u2019t have consumers in your economy, and you have domestic industries you\u2019re trying to build, then no one\u2019s going to buy the things. Your employees can\u2019t buy the things. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s intolerable to some people in Brazil, and they can\u2019t see that it benefits their own economic interests.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">You\u2019re in this kind of crazy situation where it doesn\u2019t really make sense what they\u2019re doing. And they saw it happen with Bolsonaro, with Jair! They all supported him, and then he crashed the economy. Then they all went back to Lula begrudgingly and said, \u201cOK, we\u2019re going to support you in \u201922 because things aren\u2019t going very well.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Then Lula turned it around immediately, and now they\u2019re forgetting again and going back to Bolsonaro. Logically, it doesn\u2019t make sense. It\u2019s more psychological. Freud has to explain what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cLula\u2019s not some left-wing radical. He\u2019s center-right. He was left, then he became center-left, and he\u2019s moving ever more to the right.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Again, the parallels between the United States and Brazil are very apparent in terms of some of those economic choices. You\u2019ve already gone over what the U.S. wants to gain from involvement in this election. But there\u2019s another foreign power that\u2019s also interested in the election. Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro has been <a href=\"https:\/\/www.aljazeera.com\/news\/2026\/10\/17\/why-are-latin-american-countries-building-closer-ties-with-israel\">cozying up<\/a> to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, obviously in stark contrast to President Lula, who\u2019s been an ardent supporter of the Palestinians. What would a Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro presidency look like for Brazil\u2019s stance towards Israel?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> You can\u2019t say that Lula has been the heroic savior, but he has made statements <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/shorts\/YSdsgx6P3s8\">saying<\/a>, \u201cThis is a genocide. This is very bad. This shouldn\u2019t happen.\u201d <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">At the same time, he\u2019s allowed Petrobras to ship <a href=\"https:\/\/www.brasildefato.com.br\/2025\/06\/17\/despite-critics-brazilian-government-still-provides-petrol-for-israeli-tanks-and-airplanes-to-kill-palestinians\/\">petroleum products<\/a> to the Israeli government that are being used in the genocide. He\u2019s allowed one of the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.intercept.com.br\/2025\/05\/29\/empresa-brasileira-aco-industria-armas-israel\/\">major steel manufacturers<\/a> to ship steel and ore to the Israeli weapons companies that are using it to build rifles and bombs to use in Gaza. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s not like you\u2019re dealing with the leader of BDS [Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement] versus Netanyahu\u2019s best friend. It\u2019s a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/05\/03\/eu-israel-palestine-war-crimes-accountability\/\">run-of-the-mill European-style<\/a> center-left social democrat leader that\u2019s kinda disappointing on this issue, versus someone that just wants to be <em>absolutely<\/em> submissive to everything that Israel wants and does and just completely supports it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Again, you said, there\u2019s so many parallels to the U.S. The parallels in Brazil, why does this make sense? Why would they care about supporting Israel? Why would this be something that they would want to put their name on, like these horrible scenes that people have been seeing for years online?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Everyone\u2019s seeing it. Why would they want to support it? They kind of want to do the same thing in Brazil. One of the things that Jair always complains about is that he\u2019s jealous of the U.S. because their cavalry was more effective at <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/02\/16\/brazil-bolsonaro-indigenous-land\/\">exterminating the Indigenous population<\/a> than the Brazilian cavalry was. They\u2019re upset that they have these relatively small numbers of Indigenous people that have claims to these massive swaths of land, much of which in the Amazon, that they want to get their hands on so they can cut down the trees and throw cows in and do mining. So a colonial\u2013settler project that involves extermination of the Indigenous population to benefit their economy.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThey\u2019re upset that they have these relatively small numbers of Indigenous people that have claims to these massive swaths of land, much of which in the Amazon, that they want to get their hands on.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what Israel\u2019s doing, and that\u2019s what they want to do in Brazil: \u201cWhy don\u2019t you give me all the fun, fancy tools of <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2023\/11\/10\/nso-group-israel-gaza-blacklist\/\">espionage<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/08\/25\/border-patrol-israel-elbit-surveillance\/\">surveillance<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/08\/26\/ai-drone-warfare-russia-ukraine-openai-anthropic\/\">war<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/10\/21\/instagram-israel-palestine-censorship-sjp\/\">suppression<\/a> that you guys have developed and <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/04\/30\/israel-palestine-us-ai-surveillance-state\/\">honed<\/a> in Israel for the last decades, and let me get my hands on them too so I can do the same thing back here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">I think that\u2019s one of the main reasons ideologically. Plus the whole political, <a href=\"https:\/\/znetwork.org\/znetarticle\/was-the-pentecostal-boom-in-latin-america-a-cia-psyop\/\">evangelical right-wing movement<\/a>, which was a concerted project by the CIA to implant in Latin America, bringing in prosperity gospel to get rid of the Catholic Church and all their support of left and workers movements.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This is all very well documented, that they brought it in because it\u2019s more individualist ideology, and that individualist ideology also includes the idea that all the Jews need to go to Israel for the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/04\/03\/trump-christian-right-iran-evangelicals\/\">reckoning<\/a>. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There are a ton of parallels between Brazil and the U.S., and that\u2019s because almost all of the worst ideas in the United States have been intentionally exported to Brazil as a way to make Brazil a worse country that\u2019s more in line with U.S. interests.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That includes healthcare companies. The U.S. model of healthcare. They have free, independent public healthcare in Brazil called SUS [<em>Sistema \u00danico de Sa\u00fade<\/em>]. It\u2019s an incredible system that\u2019s very popular. They want to privatize it. They want to get rid of it to create more profit. Prosperity gospel with all this right-wing ideological movements, they love it.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cAlmost all of the worst ideas in the United States have been intentionally exported to Brazil as a way to make Brazil a worse country that\u2019s more in line with U.S. interests.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The NRA <a href=\"https:\/\/www.americasquarterly.org\/fulltextarticle\/the-nras-hemispheric-reach\/\">sent lobbyists<\/a> down in 2002 to Brazil to work with the right-wing movements to say, \u201cThis is the game plan for how you create a gun movement in Brazil.\u201d And what happened? It manifests itself in the Jair Bolsonaro administration, where they just opened up the floodgates for <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2019\/jan\/15\/brazil-bolsonaro-signs-decree-easing-gun-restrictions\">access to guns<\/a>, increasing the number of guns you have, the type of guns that you could have, the number of bullets you could have, and getting rid of anything that could help prevent organized crime from getting massive amounts of assault rifles and unmarked bullets they can use in crimes. Under Bolsonaro, that\u2019s one of the things that spread more than ever.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s all these little levers that they\u2019re really just doing copy and paste, and we\u2019ve seen these alliances with <a href=\"https:\/\/www.intercept.com.br\/2026\/09\/29\/rede-rockbridge-operacao-brasil\/\">JD Vance and the Rockbridge [Network]<\/a>, which is a group that he <a href=\"https:\/\/www.reuters.com\/world\/us\/tech-donor-network-co-founded-by-jd-vance-seeks-push-america-right-2024-08-20\/\">created<\/a> before he was vice president with a bunch of Peter Thiel and other billionaires in the U.S. They\u2019ve created a <a href=\"https:\/\/theconversation.com\/how-a-us-political-venture-capital-firm-is-trying-to-influence-brazils-election-294644\">subsidiary in Korea and now one in Brazil<\/a> that they were using to do the same sort of alignment with the local elites that they did before, in the lead-up to the \u201964 coup. I can go on for hours about all the different connections and ties.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> To your point, you\u2019ve talked about how this is much bigger than just Brazil.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">To me, the \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/05\/27\/trump-donroe-doctrine-violence-western-hemisphere-cartels\/\">Donroe Doctrine<\/a>\u201d is hanging over all of this. Last November, President Donald Trump released what he described as a corollary to the 1823 Monroe Doctrine, the \u201cDonroe Doctrine,\u201d which effectively calls for the U.S. to take an aggressive interventionist stance in Latin America under the guise of protecting the United States\u2019 national security and economic interests in the region.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Andrew, from your perspective, what more should we understand about what the United States is doing in Brazil and kind of the wider context of the Trump administration\u2019s actions in Latin America over the last two years?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> It\u2019s pretty simple. They are fighting the Cold War against China in Latin America, just like they used to do against the Soviets. As part of that war, they are aligning with far-right upstart leaders that are seen as anti-establishment, even though they\u2019re usually tied to billionaires or even billionaires themselves, like in <a href=\"https:\/\/progressive.international\/wire\/2025-03-31-daniel-noboas-family-business-president-of-ecuador-is-involved-in-cocaine-trafficking-to-europe\/en\/\">Ecuador<\/a>. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s this weird coincidence with all of them that they almost all have connections to organized drug trafficking. They\u2019re almost all known drug smugglers or connected to them or have some sort of financial relations. While they\u2019re doing that, they\u2019re arguing that \u201cWe are working together with these local governments in South and Latin America to fight drug trafficking,\u201d which is obviously a farce. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what they did in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.thetimes.com\/world\/latin-america\/article\/trump-ecuador-noboa-border-command-colombia-drugs-f3s2rgdb7\">Ecuador<\/a>. The president of Ecuador, Noboa, he\u2019s the son of a banana dynasty that does a lot of exporting bananas, and in those crates of bananas, they\u2019ve also been known to export a lot of kilos of <a href=\"https:\/\/progressive.international\/wire\/2025-03-31-daniel-noboas-family-business-president-of-ecuador-is-involved-in-cocaine-trafficking-to-europe\/en\/\">cocaine<\/a>. Their allies in Colombia have always been this way, and the things that they\u2019re doing in Bolivia, it\u2019s the exact same thing. The [Bolivian] <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/world\/2026\/10\/01\/bolivia-arrests-its-attorney-general-after-us-accuses-him-narco-corruption\/\">attorney general<\/a> who was trying to push back against the corruption of this right-wing government that has allied with Trump, well Trump and Rubio came in and said listen, you need to go after this attorney general and get rid of him. So he was arrested because he was going after their allies.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They don\u2019t care about drug trafficking, obviously. The U.S. government <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/05\/04\/trump-boat-strikes-fentanyl-cocaine-drug-supply\/\">never cared <\/a>about drugs. It\u2019s always been a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/10\/08\/collateral-damage-podcast-trump-war-drugs\/\">weapon or a tool<\/a> for them. So they\u2019re aligning with these people to create this lockstep union that they\u2019re calling the \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.thenation.com\/article\/world\/brazil-election-lula-flavio-bolsonaro-workers-rights\/\">Shield of the Americas<\/a>.\u201d It\u2019s this new alliance that they\u2019re using instead of the existing, the U.N. or other mechanisms. They\u2019re creating all their own, just like they did with the \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/03\/02\/trump-board-peace-human-right-abuses\/\">Board of Peace<\/a>.\u201d They\u2019re working to make sure that those economies just stay in their sphere of influence just a little bit longer.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They know that China\u2019s winning. China is the main trade partner with all of these countries now. They\u2019re Brazil\u2019s biggest trade partner. The United States cannot absorb all of the exports that Brazil produces that goes to China. They\u2019re not going to get Brazil to stop trading with China or stop having relations with China. They compete on corn and ethanol and soy exports. They can\u2019t absorb what China\u2019s buying.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThey\u2019re really just trying to buy a little bit more time as their empire is slowly waning, but at the cost of what?\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They\u2019re really just trying to buy a little bit more time as <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2017\/07\/22\/donald-trump-and-the-coming-fall-of-american-empire\/\">their empire is slowly waning<\/a>, but at the cost of what? At the cost of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of lives? It\u2019s not clear what the indirect results of this will be. At the cost of destroying the democratic institutions in these countries that are already, many of them struggling and teetering, and potentially at the cost of massive ecological devastation, as would be the case in the collapse of the Amazon under a Bolsonaro government?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s uplifting, right?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Very uplifting. That is my first word that comes to mind. You\u2019ve pointed out everything that Donald Trump is doing, but we also know that tech oligarchs are involved as well. Tech tycoons like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel have taken a massive interest in Latin American politics.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">What impact do you think that is having on the rightward shift we\u2019re seeing throughout the Americas?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> Oh, big time. Big time. I think the biggest tycoon that\u2019s most in the news lately is Mark Zuckerberg. He\u2019s the guy who runs Meta. Something like 99 percent of people in Brazil <a href=\"https:\/\/bylinetimes.com\/2026\/10\/02\/digital-armies-and-disinformation-how-big-tech-is-hitting-brazils-upcoming-election\/\">use WhatsApp<\/a> as their primary form of communication.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The idea of sending a text message in Brazil is like, \u201cWhat are you, some sort of barbarian? What decade is this?\u201d People only use WhatsApp. And for a lot of people, you get a cheap phone, and you get a prepaid phone plan because they didn\u2019t have net neutrality like it was passed in the U.S. It\u2019ll come with free credits for WhatsApp and Facebook, and it\u2019ll come preinstalled on the phone even, and it\u2019s part of the plan.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So for a lot of people, Facebook for many years and WhatsApp <em>were<\/em> the internet. Now Instagram as well. Instagram is really the main tool of political communication at this point. As we know, [it is] highly censored. You guys saw recently at the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2026\/oct\/18\/no-kings-instagram-account-suspended-during-protests\">No Kings protests<\/a> what Meta can do if it just decides to suddenly have a technical error that they fail to fix for eight hours.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what they\u2019ve been doing in Brazil for months now. So you have a young right-wing member of Congress named <a href=\"https:\/\/valorinternational.globo.com\/politics\/news\/2026\/10\/19\/bolsonaro-campaign-enlists-influencer-lawmaker-regional-leaders.ghtml\">Nikolas Ferreira<\/a>. He comes from a right-wing evangelical church, and he\u2019s very charismatic, and he\u2019s really good on social media, and he\u2019s got something like 22 million followers or something. Brazil has 214 million people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">When Lula was having this dispute a year or two ago with foreign tech interests, including Meta\u2019s interests, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.france24.com\/en\/live-news\/20250118-in-brazil-disinformation-deals-lula-a-bruising-defeat\">Nikolas Ferreira planted this fake news<\/a> that Lula was trying to tax the main financial instrument that people use called Pix. It\u2019s this free instant cash transfers that you can do that\u2019s created by the central bank, and everyone loves it. Trump hates it because it competes against Mastercard and Visa. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So [Ferreira] created this fake news that what Lula was trying to do was tax all transactions and so therefore you were just going to get taxed even more, and you, the poor working man, was going to get screwed. In reality, there was no tax involved, and it was an anti-money laundering initiative that any transactions over 1,000 reais [<em>Editor\u2019s note: <a href=\"https:\/\/valorinternational.globo.com\/economy\/news\/2025\/01\/16\/under-pressure-government-revokes-pix-oversight-rule.ghtml\">5,000 Brazilian reais<\/a><\/em>] would be immediately reported so they can trace questions of money laundering, which is a huge problem in Brazil.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That video was seen, the last time I checked, over 300 million times in a country that has 214 million people, and not all of them are on Instagram. That\u2019s just Instagram \u2014 not including the other social networks. And in the last few weeks of the election, Nikolas Ferreira\u2019s account has had <a href=\"https:\/\/newsletters.brazilian.report\/p\/why-meta-matters-in-brazilian-elections\">greater engagement<\/a> and views than every global celebrity you can name. I don\u2019t know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but three times more than Beyonc\u00e9. Just think of the most famous person that you can think of in the world and their account, and Nikolas Ferreira \u2014 who you hadn\u2019t heard of until I said his name just now \u2014 is crushing them.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cJust think of the most famous person that you can think of in the world and their account, and Nikolas Ferreira \u2014 who you hadn\u2019t heard of until I said his name just now \u2014 is crushing them.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s being seen as <a href=\"https:\/\/www.techpolicy.press\/meta-moderation-failures-loom-over-brazils-runoff-presidential-election\/\">probable algorithmic manipulation<\/a> by Meta in favor of the right-wing movement. OK, that\u2019s one example, we don\u2019t have access to the algorithm, we can\u2019t be sure about that. Well. if you go onto the Meta\u2019s AI in WhatsApp, and you say, \u201cCreate me a political poster for Fl\u00e1vio, vote Fl\u00e1vio,\u201d it\u2019ll do vote Fl\u00e1vio, and they\u2019ll use his election number, 22.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And you say, \u201cVote for a capybara, vote for a flamingo,\u201d They\u2019ll say, \u201cVote 22.\u201d They\u2019ll use Fl\u00e1vio\u2019s number. And then if you say, \u201cDo another poster, but say vote Lula,\u201d it\u2019ll say, \u201cWe can\u2019t do that. That\u2019s an election interference, and we\u2019re not allowed to do that.\u201d And say you just did it for Fl\u00e1vio,\u201d and then the AI will be like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re right. That\u2019s a mistake.\u201d But then it keeps happening, and it\u2019s been happening for weeks now. People have been pointing it out for weeks.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">They <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2026\/oct\/21\/battle-meta-alleged-bolsonaro-bias-intensifies-days-before-brazil-presidential-runoff\">blocked Lula\u2019s Meta account<\/a> from being able to run paid ads like 10 days before the first round of the elections. They said, oh, that was a mistake. It was my bad. Lots of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.techpolicy.press\/meta-moderation-failures-loom-over-brazils-runoff-presidential-election\/\">left-wing accounts<\/a> have seen these weird number shifts.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So they\u2019ll have, let\u2019s say, 20,000 comments, but it\u2019ll say zero shares, or the views will go down to zero, or people have been talking about, \u201cMy engagement just has been completely in the tank since this election has started.\u201d Not everybody, but some people.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">There\u2019s all these pieces of circumstantial <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nbcnews.com\/world\/south-america\/brazil-lula-wins-electoral-court-challenge-meta-alleged-bolsonaro-bias-rcna603835\">evidence that suggest that Meta is interfering<\/a> in this election, and they have every incentive to do so. They will have a much better regulatory environment if Fl\u00e1vio wins because of Fl\u00e1vio\u2019s submissiveness to U.S. interests and his willingness to play ball with whatever Trump tells him to.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">So that\u2019s just one case. That\u2019s just Mark Zuckerberg. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Cutting in here, from the future. After our conversation with Andrew. We requested comment from Meta who sent a lengthy response, but in summary, they said, \u201cEach of the incidents cited by Lula\u2019s campaign has a straightforward, documented explanation. \u2026 None reflects political targeting. None reflects manipulated distribution. None reflects an effort to influence the election.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Meta said Lula\u2019s campaign ad account was disabled for one hour by mistake, not for political reasons. The company also claimed that issues with ad creation and video view count were global errors, and not politically motivated.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">On Monday, a Brazilian <a href=\"https:\/\/www.aljazeera.com\/news\/2026\/10\/19\/brazilian-court-orders-meta-to-prove-lula-and-bolsonaro-get-equal-treatment\">court gave Meta 24 hours<\/a> to prove that it was not favoring Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro over President Lula in its feeds, or it would face an escalating fine. This comes after that same judge <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nbcnews.com\/world\/south-america\/brazil-lula-wins-electoral-court-challenge-meta-alleged-bolsonaro-bias-rcna603835\">ruled<\/a> that while he could not find evidence of deliberate interference, the company <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2026\/oct\/21\/battle-meta-alleged-bolsonaro-bias-intensifies-days-before-brazil-presidential-runoff\">had 24 hours to prove<\/a> that the issues affecting the Lula campaign were solved and would not reoccur.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">OK, now back to Andrew.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> <a href=\"https:\/\/www.axios.com\/2022\/05\/20\/elon-musk-bolsonaro-brazil\">Elon\u2019s<\/a> coming down here. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2026\/05\/28\/world\/americas\/peter-thiel-argentina.html\">Peter Thiel<\/a> was just down in Argentina to hang out with Javier Milei, who\u2019s the president who\u2019s been destroying the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.aljazeera.com\/news\/2026\/9\/25\/argentinas-poverty-rises-to-32-percent-under-milei-with-more-pain-forecast\">economy<\/a> and businesses are shuttering, unemployment\u2019s up, costs of living have gone through the roof, but he\u2019s this anarcho-capitalist, hyper-libertarian that\u2019s just been cutting everything with a literal chainsaw. He came on <a href=\"https:\/\/apnews.com\/article\/milei-argentina-chainsaw-fed35a37c6137b951e4adada3d866436\">stage with a chainsaw<\/a> saying, just like Elon Musk did, I\u2019m going to cut through all the regulations and the red tape. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s what they want, and Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro said, I\u2019m going to do that. I want to follow the Milei model. In the last debate that they had, the first <a href=\"https:\/\/www.elciudadano.com\/en\/lula-challenges-flavio-bolsonaro-in-first-face-off-ahead-of-runoff-election-have-you-borrowed-mileis-chainsaw\/10\/19\/\">debate<\/a>, which was just the other night, Lula asked Fl\u00e1vio about this: Are you going to be Milei?<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">He was just sort of refusing to answer the question. Eventually OK, what model are you going to follow? [Lula] said, I\u2019m going to follow the Lula model, the one that I\u2019ve been doing that\u2019s been working. What are you going to do? Answer the question. But, outside of that debate, [Fl\u00e1vio] had been saying that he loves Milei.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.latintimes.com\/milei-endorses-flavio-bolsonaro-sao-paulo-then-brazil-recalls-its-ambassador-598330\">Milei<\/a> gave him an official endorsement, just like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.timesofisrael.com\/liveblog_entry\/netanyahu-wishes-flavio-bolsonaro-great-victory-in-final-election-round\/\">Benjamin Netanyahu<\/a> did an official endorsement for Fl\u00e1vio, which is something that doesn\u2019t happen in international relations. Foreign leaders just as a matter of course don\u2019t endorse a candidate in a foreign election. So they\u2019re being very overt in this, and they\u2019re all working together with their billionaire buddies who have controls over huge levers of power in Brazil because of how Big Techs work in the world.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">That\u2019s one of the main issues for leftist voters in Brazil right now. They want sovereignty for their country. They want Brazil to be able to govern Brazil under Brazilian law and have control over Brazil to serve Brazilian interests. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Fl\u00e1vio Bolsonaro does not care about that. Trump and Musk and Zuckerberg do not want that because it would be a limitation on their ability to exert power in Brazil and in the world. They don\u2019t want it to be a model for the rest of the world.\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThat\u2019s one of the main issues for leftist voters in Brazil right now. They want sovereignty for their country.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> Listening to everything you\u2019re saying, obviously, we\u2019re not going to fix the issue of tech oligarchs meddling in foreign elections by Sunday. But are there any final thoughts that you have just about this election?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> I would say that this election is so important and relevant for the United States and for the world. For many years, there\u2019s been this concept called the Brazilification of the United States. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Brazil wants to become, or, people that vote for Fl\u00e1vio at least, they want Brazil to become the United States. They see the U.S. as the country where everything works, where everything is perfect and goes well, and they don\u2019t see all the bad stuff that listeners and readers of The Intercept know all about far too well. <\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">But in reality, it\u2019s not that Brazil is becoming more like the United States, it\u2019s that the United States is becoming more like Brazil.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">The middle class is getting squeezed and disappearing. In Brazil, 90 percent of the country makes $1,200 or less a month. The middle class would be considered extremely poor by U.S. standards, and what it does exist of a U.S.-style middle class is just teeny-tiny. You have just shrinking spheres of democracy, while oligarchs have increasing power and control and are able to do what they want and insist on decisions for the country that are bad for the society, bad for all of the society and the people, but good for their individual interests.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">It\u2019s just this more polarized, divided, K-shape economies, what you guys call it in the U.S. That\u2019s where things are going. So you should really pay attention to this Brazilian election because the things that are happening here and the things that are going to happen in the next few days are very likely to be happening in the United States in the near future, if they\u2019re not already happening.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW:<\/strong> The Brazilification of the United States is a really good way to put it. I think so often people in the U.S., and, I can include myself, we think about the impact that the United States has on other countries, but we rarely think about the mutual shared relationships and larger shared ideas that people have between countries, between continents. So I think that\u2019s a really good point.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We\u2019re going to have to leave it there, but Andrew, thank you so much for joining me on The Intercept Briefing. You can find more of Andrew Fishman\u2019s reporting at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.intercept.com.br\/\">The Intercept Brasil<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>AF:<\/strong> Thank you. Keep up the good work.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>JW: <\/strong>That does it for this episode.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">We want to hear from you. Tell us what you\u2019re following or want to see more coverage of. Email us at <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/10\/23\/brazil-president-election-lula-bolsonaro-meta\/mailto:podcasts@theintercept.com\">podcasts@theintercept.com<\/a> or leave us a voice mail at 530-POD-CAST that\u2019s 530-763-2278<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This episode was produced by Laura Flynn. Jordan Uhl is our social media producer. Ben Muessig is our editor-in-chief. Maia Hibbett is our managing editor.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Nara Shin is our copy editor. William Stanton mixed our show. Legal review by David Bralow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><a href=\"https:\/\/get.slip.stream\/47wY5q\">Slip Stream<\/a> provided our theme music.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">This show and our reporting at The Intercept do not exist without you. Your donation, no matter the amount, makes a real difference. Keep our investigations free and fearless at <a href=\"https:\/\/join.theintercept.com\/donate\/Donate_Podcast?source=interceptedshoutout&recurring_period=one-time\" data-type=\"link\" data-id=\"https:\/\/join.theintercept.com\/donate\/Donate_Podcast?source=interceptedshoutout&recurring_period=one-time\">theintercept.com\/join<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">And if you haven\u2019t already, please subscribe to The Intercept Briefing wherever you listen to podcasts. Do leave us a rating or a review, it helps other listeners find our reporting.<\/p>\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Until next time, I\u2019m Jessica Washington.\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<p>#Stakes #Brazils #Presidential #Election<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Brazilians will head to the po… <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":33434,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[246],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/33433"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=33433"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/33433\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/33434"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=33433"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=33433"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=33433"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}