{"id":12886,"date":"2026-01-16T11:00:57","date_gmt":"2026-01-16T11:00:57","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/?p=12886"},"modified":"2026-01-16T11:00:57","modified_gmt":"2026-01-16T11:00:57","slug":"trumps-war-on-america","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/?p=12886","title":{"rendered":"Trump\u2019s War on America"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><\/p>\n<div>\n<p>    <!-- BLOCK(acast)[0](%7B%22componentName%22%3A%22ACAST%22%2C%22entityType%22%3A%22SHORTCODE%22%2C%22optional%22%3Afalse%7D)(%7B%22id%22%3A%22trumps-war-on-america%22%2C%22podcast%22%3A%22intercept-presents%22%2C%22subscribe%22%3Atrue%7D) --><\/p>\n<p>\n  <iframe src=\"https:\/\/embed.acast.com\/intercept-presents\/trumps-war-on-america?accentColor=111111&amp;bgColor=f5f6f7&amp;logo=false\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"acast-player__embed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/p>\n<p><!-- END-BLOCK(acast)[0] --><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"has-underline\">Immigration and Customs Enforcement<\/span> agent Jonathan Ross fatally <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/07\/video-ice-shooting-civilian-minneapolis\/\">shot Renee Good<\/a>, a 37-year-old mother of three, in Minneapolis last week, unleashing a wave of anti-ICE protests and sentiment throughout Minnesota and the rest of the United States.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>On Wednesday evening, federal immigration agents shot and wounded a man in Minneapolis, adding to the tension in the Twin Cities. President Donald Trump threatened to send in troops to crush the unrest.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWhat should be very clear to all Americans now is that there is no way to wage war on \u2018illegal immigration\u2019 without also waging war on American citizens,\u201d says Adam Serwer, staff writer at The Atlantic.<\/p>\n<p>This week on The Intercept Briefing, host Jessica Washington examines how the Trump administration\u2019s brutal deportation agenda is unfolding in Minnesota, sparking national backlash and renewed demands to abolish ICE; the historical legacy of immigration enforcement in the U.S.; and the administration\u2019s racist vision of reshaping American society.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>First, Minnesota Public Radio reporter Jon Collins shares an update on the Trump administration\u2019s siege. \u201cThe national audience needs to understand this is not just unrest, this is not just protests. \u2026 This is an invasion,\u201d says Collins. \u201cThe justification from this administration, the way that they\u2019re portraying what\u2019s happening here in Minnesota \u2014 it almost turns on its head how we think about our constitutional rights in this country. Instead of protecting the citizens from the government, what they\u2019re arguing for is protecting law enforcement from any transparency, from any accountability to the people.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThe biggest organization of terror in this moment is the Department of Homeland Security,\u201d says Rep. Delia Ramirez, who shared exclusively with The Intercept that she is introducing legislation to <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/15\/ice-bill-violence-minneapolis\/\">limit the use of force by DHS agents<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>The Illinois congresswoman described the bill as the \u201cbare minimum\u201d to curb DHS\u2019s abuses, calling for Democrats to use the appropriations process to \u201chold\u201d funding to the agency and ultimately dismantle it.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>\u201cEvery single Democrat and every single Republican should be able to sign on to this bill,\u201d says Ramirez. \u201cBecause it\u2019s basic, bare minimum, and not signing on is indicating that you\u2019re OK with what\u2019s happening on the streets.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>\u201cWhat we\u2019re seeing today has a long history,\u201d says Adam Goodman, a historian at the University of Illinois Chicago. <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/12\/19\/deportation-abrego-garcia-ice-immigration\/\">Federal immigration agencies\u2019 budgets<\/a> depend \u201con apprehensions, detentions, and deportations.\u201d That \u201cinstitutional imperative,\u201d he says, \u201cis going to lead to all kinds of problems, including incredible discretionary authority \u2026 and tremendous abuses.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Serwer points out \u201cthe violence that you\u2019re seeing that federal agents are engaging in against observers, against activists, not just against immigrants, is a reflection of [an] ideological worldview. Which is that those of us who do not agree with Donald Trump are not real Americans and are not entitled to the rights that are due us in the Constitution, whether or not we have citizenship.\u201d He adds, \u201cThe truth is, a democracy cannot exist when it has an armed uniformed federal agency who believes that its job is to brutalize 50 percent of the country.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Listen to the full conversation of The Intercept Briefing on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-intercept-briefing\/id1195206601\">Apple Podcasts<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/2js8lwDRiK1TB4rUgiYb24?si=e3ce772344ee4170\">Spotify<\/a>, or wherever you listen.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Transcript<\/strong><\/p>\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-ice-invades-the-twin-cities-nbsp\"><strong>ICE Invades the Twin Cities\u00a0<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p><strong>Jessica Washington: <\/strong>Welcome to The Intercept Briefing, I\u2019m Jessica Washington.<\/p>\n<p>Since ICE agent <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/08\/ice-agent-identified-shooting-minneapolis-jonathan-ross\/\">Jonathan Ross<\/a> fatally shot <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/07\/video-ice-shooting-civilian-minneapolis\/\">37-year-old Renee Good<\/a> last week, the Trump administration has deployed about a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.cnn.com\/us\/live-news\/minnesota-immigration-ice-trump-minneapolis-01-13-26?post-id=cmkcjf4fp0000356ptjx9d952\">1,000 <\/a>more immigration agents to the Minneapolis area. That\u2019s on top of the roughly <a href=\"https:\/\/www.pbs.org\/newshour\/politics\/2000-federal-agents-sent-to-minneapolis-area-to-carry-out-largest-immigration-operation-ever-ice-says\">2,000 <\/a>federal agents already in the area to conduct the \u201clargest immigration operation ever,\u201d according to Trump administration officials.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Minnesota Sen. <a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/amyklobuchar\/status\/2011110855232962801\"><strong>Amy Klobuchar<\/strong><\/a>: There are like 600 sworn-in officers in Minneapolis, and 550 or so in St. Paul. The ICE agents are literally overwhelming our own police force.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW: <\/strong>As the city becomes the latest target of the administration, yet again, we see a wave of videos on social media showing heavily armed masked immigration agents tackling, dragging, shoving, and intimidating people.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/reel\/2090154128413400\"><strong>Sound of tape<\/strong><\/a><strong> from ICE arresting <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/ictnews.org\/news\/i-felt-like-i-was-kidnapped-ojibwe-man-recounts-ice-detainment\/\"><strong>Jose Roberto Beto Ramirez<\/strong><\/a><strong>:<\/strong> [Whistle sounds] Let them scan your face. \u2026 Why did you hit him? No. [Screaming.]<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/reel\/1920709251859893\"><strong>Sound of tape <\/strong><\/a><strong>of federal immigration agents tackling <\/strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/us-news\/2026\/jan\/13\/ice-immigration-target-minnesota\"><strong>Target employee<\/strong><\/a>:<\/p>\n<p><strong>Unknown speaker:<\/strong> What\u2019s your name?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Johnny Garcia: <\/strong>Johnny Garcia. Jonathan Aguilar Garcia. \u2026 I\u2019m a U.S. citizen.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/reel\/DTdrPvZisO5\/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&amp;igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D\"><strong>Sound on tape <\/strong><\/a><strong>of ICE carrying a woman from her vehicle: <\/strong>I\u2019m autistic, and I have a brain injury! Put me down! I was just trying to get to the doctor \u2026\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/reel\/DTdCtFigOJR\/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&amp;igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==\"><strong>Sound on tape <\/strong><\/a><strong>from Noah and Judy Levy\u2019s ICE encounter:\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Unknown agent: <\/strong>Hello, Judith.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Judy Levy (SOT): <\/strong>Do not threaten me. \u2026 God bless you.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Judy Levy: <\/strong>And as more people started showing up and people were honking their horns and making a commotion, they started driving away. So we started following, and they led us to our house.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW: <\/strong>That last clip is of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.mprnews.org\/story\/2026\/01\/13\/ice-using-private-data-to-intimidate-observers-and-activists-advocates-say\">Noah and Judy Levy<\/a>, a St. Paul couple who were observing Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents. The Levys were speaking to Minnesota Public Radio reporter <a href=\"https:\/\/www.mprnews.org\/people\/jon-collins\">Jon Collins<\/a>. He joins me now to talk about the latest from the Twin Cities.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Jon, welcome to The Intercept Briefing.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon Collins:<\/strong> Thanks so much for having me,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jessica Washington:<\/strong> Jon, we just heard a clip of your interview with a couple from St. Paul, Minnesota, telling you about their encounter with immigration agents on the street the day before Renee Good was killed. Can you tell us more about that interaction?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> We had heard many different accounts from observers that they were being intimidated by ICE and other federal agents. And so I tried to track down some of the people who had direct experiences with it, and these are some of the folks who were willing to talk on the record.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.mprnews.org\/story\/2026\/01\/13\/ice-using-private-data-to-intimidate-observers-and-activists-advocates-say\">They told me <\/a>they went out. They heard there was a caravan of ICE agents staging in a vacant parking lot near their home. They went out with other neighbors. What typically happens happened \u2014 which is that the ICE agents stopped the observers, they surrounded the cars, they started yelling at them, they threatened them with arrest, that sort of thing. But the Levys, in this particular case, after this incident, after they were stopped, kept following. And one of the officers had come up to Judy\u2019s window and scanned her license plate, took pictures of her, of course, and then said, \u201cHello, Judith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s when they first realized that the feds were using some sort of tool to identify them, but they didn\u2019t know the extent of it because as they continued to follow this ICE caravan, the ICE caravan drove onto their street. And they have video showing ICE agents out in front of their house.<\/p>\n<p>At that time, they were advised by other observers to go to a safe place. But they were shocked that ICE agents were somehow able to access their private data in order to \u2014 what they saw as \u2014 intimidate them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Have you investigated other stories that are similar? Are there other types of surveillance happening in Minneapolis that you\u2019ve encountered?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> There\u2019s certainly a lot going on especially since the surge here started, the ICE surge, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/12\/06\/trump-ice-minnesota-somali\/\">started in December <\/a>and that had fewer agents, but they\u2019ve been sending more and more agents here. There\u2019s all sorts of allegations of different tools that ICE agents are using to identify people.<\/p>\n<p>Facial scanners is one, and that\u2019s both for immigrants, that they want to look in their database and see if they\u2019re wanted for any immigration violations \u2014 a civil violation, again, <em>not <\/em>a criminal violation. But also for citizens. So that will be observers, that will be bystanders.<\/p>\n<p>And what people are alleging is that ICE uses this information. And remember, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/07\/01\/masked-ice-agents-victimization-accountability\/\">ICE are masked agents<\/a>, they\u2019re not identified, they don\u2019t typically almost ever have a badge or a number or anything really that holds them accountable \u2014 including what agency they\u2019re a part of.<\/p>\n<p>DHS, we know, the Department of Homeland Security, has many different federal agencies under its auspices. Not all of the folks on the street are ICE. And in fact, Border Patrol has showed up in force recently, and they have <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/p\/DTY5hpID6zz\/?hl=en\">quite aggressive tactics <\/a>even compared to ICE. So people have been reporting concerns about federal agents accessing their private information and using all these technologies for weeks now.<\/p>\n<p>And I should say, Homeland Security does not respond to requests for comments. They don\u2019t respond to media questions, and they will not deny or confirm or even acknowledge what tools agents might be using. It\u2019s really a black box, and it causes a lot of concern for privacy advocates.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s a really good point: The conflation of agents in the street and a lot of confusion and focus on ICE. I was hoping you could give us a little bit of background on why they\u2019re in Minnesota in the first place.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> What people are saying is that Minnesota is the home of Gov. Tim Walz. He was the vice presidential candidate who ran against Donald Trump. And people are saying this really fits the pattern that we see across the country of retaliation, using the power of the federal government \u2014 in this case, it would be federal agents and immigration enforcement \u2014 to retaliate against political enemies.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Minnesota, I should say, is kind of a blue state. It can be relatively close. We don\u2019t have any statewide elected Republican officials, and we haven\u2019t in many years. So in the Midwest, folks will say, we are a pocket of blue surrounded by red. People see some sort of action from the federal government as retaliation for not being loyal enough to the president, essentially.<\/p>\n<p>Then there have been things in the news about fraud that people see being used as a pretext to come to Minnesota to <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/03\/minnesota-fraud-video-somalis-nick-shirley-source\/\">demonize Somali Americans <\/a>who have been a longtime community here. That is alarming to a lot of people, because Somali Americans \u2014 the vast majority are U.S. citizens.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So when ICE agents are driving around town, masked-up, in very small groups, and grabbing Somali Americans off the street, the vast majority of them, the people being hassled, are U.S. citizens. So people think that the pretext of immigration enforcement is just that it\u2019s a pretext. And what they really want to do is enforce some sort of political orthodoxy on the state of Minnesota and on the people here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> I want to get into the reaction from people in Minneapolis and in the Twin Cities in general. Thousands of people have taken to the streets, protesting against the presence of ICE agents after an officer fatally shot <a href=\"https:\/\/www.mprnews.org\/story\/2026\/01\/09\/renee-goods-wife-releases-statement-about-ice-shooting\">Renee Good<\/a>, a mother of three, who was acting as a neighborhood observer. <\/p>\n<p>Jon, what have you been hearing from residents about how they\u2019re responding to the shooting and to ICE\u2019s, and as you\u2019ve pointed out, larger federal agencies\u2019 presence within the city?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> I think one thing a national and international audience needs to understand is what we\u2019re seeing here is not like what happened after George Floyd here and in other places around the country. Of course, there have been vigils after Renee Good was shot and killed by an ICE agent. Of course, there was a vigil of 10,000 people in the neighborhood, and there have been protests. There was 20,000 people a mile from here over the weekend.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>But most of what is happening is not what we think of as \u201cprotests.\u201d It\u2019s not clashes between protesters and federal agents. What is happening is we have groups of masked armed federal agents, not identifying themselves, roving around the cities in caravans \u2014 and then we have neighbors, some activists, but also many normal people.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cMost of what is happening is not what we think of as \u2018protests.\u2019 It\u2019s not clashes between protesters and federal agents.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>One person who\u2019s been working with these folks describes it as \u201cnormie Target moms.\u201d Essentially these are folks, just normal people who are coming out of their houses when they hear the whistling, which is the signal that folks use to alert the neighborhood that ICE is around. When they hear honking, they\u2019re coming out, they\u2019re trying to use their constitutional rights to observe law enforcement.<\/p>\n<p>Most of the instances where you see someone being pepper-sprayed, someone being tased, ICE agents breaking a window and pulling an observer out of a car \u2014 those are not protest situations. That is a response from the community that is trying to, they say, keep their neighbors as safe as possible at a time when we have thousands of these agents in our communities.<\/p>\n<p>I just want to say really quickly that this is not just in the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, the Twin Cities. This is not just in the lefty neighborhoods in Minneapolis and St. Paul. This is happening all over the state. The enforcement is happening all over the state, and then the response is happening all over the state.<\/p>\n<p>When ICE agents conduct some sort of action in a place like St. Cloud, Minnesota, a small town, the neighbors are coming out in the same way that they\u2019re coming out in the core cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, because these are the folks who work at their coffee shops, they work at their restaurants, they\u2019re co-workers, they\u2019re friends.<\/p>\n<p>So this enforcement action is so broad and unprecedented, and folks across the state are really trying to meet peacefully and observe and use their constitutional rights to express their opposition to what\u2019s being done to this state.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> I think for many of us who watched that video of ICE agent Jonathan Ross shooting Renee Good, watched it from multiple different angles. It evokes a lot of fear. And I guess my question is, from what you\u2019re seeing, is the anger and the love for their neighbors \u2014 is that outweighing the fear in people right now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> What\u2019s shocking to me is, every time I talk to someone who say they were an observer, they got taken down in 20 below weather kept on the ground, handcuffed, dragged away, brought to detention, all these different circumstances \u2014 everyone I talk to says what they see as harassment and intimidation that they experience only makes them more resolved to go out and use their constitutional rights to observe what\u2019s happening and express opposition to it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> I want to talk about some of those violent incidents that you\u2019ve documented. Federal agents in Minneapolis and throughout Minnesota have violently clashed with protesters throughout the week. What can you tell us about these interactions and how they\u2019ve been playing out in the state?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> It\u2019s all over the Twin Cities specifically, but all over the state. And typically what\u2019s happened is ICE agents will go around in a caravan. It\u2019s not clear that they have, for the most part, any actual enforcement plan, but they\u2019ll drive around. <\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cIt\u2019s not clear that they have, for the most part, any actual enforcement plan.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>It just happened down the block here. Two people were detained by ICE at a bus stop, and observers show up because typically they\u2019re trailing these officers trying to keep tabs on what they\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n<p>They will let their networks know. They use Signal and other apps to communicate with other folks in the community, and they will start honking. They\u2019ll blow their whistles. And people from all over the city or all over the neighborhood will show up and express their opposition to it. So some people are recording, some people are yelling, but for the most part, people are not impeding law enforcement.<\/p>\n<p>But the clashes that we see are when, typically, ICE decides \u201cOK, people are too close,\u201d or \u201cWe want to get out of here.\u201d Or many people have told me stories that they don\u2019t even know why an ICE agent was acting in a certain way. The <a href=\"https:\/\/bsky.app\/profile\/elliottpayne.org\/post\/3mcbnjlu7ms22\">Minneapolis City Council president<\/a> was out on a scene the other day, and video captured ICE agents \u2014 for no reason \u2014 just pushing him as hard as they could. And they pull out pepper spray and randomly use that.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>The City Council president told me there\u2019s an officer just running around, putting his Taser to people\u2019s chests or to people\u2019s arms, threatening them. Not for any security reason, not from what we can tell, any reason connected to their job. But because there is no accountability for these ICE agents. <\/p>\n<p>They know they\u2019re not going to be disciplined. They\u2019re clear with a message from the administration \u2014 from the top down \u2014 that anything they do, including, the shooting of a mother of three in the face, is going to be <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/08\/ice-minneapolis-video-killing-shooting\/\">defended by the administration<\/a>. So there\u2019s a sense that they\u2019re acting without accountability and that, that is really inspired by a lot of the rhetoric that we hear coming out of this administration.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cAnything they do, including, the shooting of a mother of three in the face, is going to be defended by the administration.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Where are city and state officials in all of this? What efforts have we seen from local representatives to push back on DHS in their state and in their cities?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> So Minneapolis and St. Paul have both had separation ordinances for a while that blocks the city agencies and officials from cooperating with federal immigration enforcement. And that includes the police in both cities.<\/p>\n<p>They have found themselves, in the cities, in a very strange situation because you have essentially all these unaccountable masked, mostly anonymous, federal agents running around town \u2014 some who are using excessive force on citizens and on immigrants they\u2019re trying to detain. And the police, for the most part, have steered clear of showing up to those scenes.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>The police chief has said, if you see them, call 911, but police so far have not intervened on the side of citizens or protesters. That\u2019s why so many of the observers who are out there say, \u201cIt\u2019s our responsibility to put our bodies on the line to go out there, because the state\u2019s not going to come out and protect us. The local law enforcement that we pay is not gonna come out and protect us.\u201d So they say, \u201cWe need to protect us.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And I should say much of the infrastructure for this movement of observers and ICE watchers came out of <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/collections\/protests-for-black-lives\/\">protests after George Floyd was killed in 2020<\/a>. Many of the neighborhood groups that were formed in places like my neighborhood \u2014 the WhatsApp channels, the Signal channels \u2014 were ways that our neighbors communicated with one another to set up things like patrols when police were not patrolling our streets, to make sure that arsons did not happen in our neighborhoods.<\/p>\n<p>So these really evolved into ways that people organized the resistance to this current push by the administration here. And people are really of the opinion that the national audience needs to understand this is not just unrest, this is not just protests.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>An attorney I talked to just a few minutes ago said, \u201cThis is an invasion.\u201d And people need to understand the scale of it: 3,000 law enforcement agents \u2014 that\u2019s about 1 for every 1,000 residents.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Before we go, any final thoughts?<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> The justification from this administration, the way that they\u2019re portraying what\u2019s happening here in Minnesota \u2014 it almost turns on its head how we think about our constitutional rights in this country. Instead of protecting the citizens from the government, what they\u2019re arguing for is protecting law enforcement from any transparency, from any accountability to the people.<\/p>\n<p>We have ICE agents who they say they\u2019re afraid are being <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/09\/24\/court-block-instagram-subpoena-ice-border-patrol\/\">doxed<\/a>, which is not a legal term, of course. But we have a principle in this country that officials, we <em>should<\/em> know who officials are. We\u2019re vesting them with authority; we\u2019re vesting them with power. Therefore, the trade-off is we say, OK, we should know who these people are. We should be able to hold them accountable when they abuse these fundamental rights that are happening. But this administration has turned the Constitution on its head.<\/p>\n<p>We <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/14\/ice-minneapolis-protests-renee-good\/\">see this in Renee Good\u2019s killing too<\/a>, where they are saying that citizens, instead of being <em>given <\/em>these constitutional rights as just an assumption, that citizens need to <em>earn <\/em>their constitutional rights by acting appropriately, by respecting law enforcement, by not yelling at law enforcement.<\/p>\n<p>And that is just the opposite of what our traditions here are in the United States. I want the national audience to understand that that\u2019s what\u2019s happening here. It\u2019s not just clashes between protesters and ICE; it\u2019s an attack on basic rights that we\u2019ve taken for granted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Thank you so much for that update, Jon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JC:<\/strong> Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p><!-- BLOCK(newsletter)[0](%7B%22componentName%22%3A%22NEWSLETTER%22%2C%22entityType%22%3A%22SHORTCODE%22%2C%22optional%22%3Atrue%7D)(%7B%7D) --><\/p>\n<div class=\"newsletter-embed flex-col items-center print:hidden\" id=\"third-party--article-mid\" data-module=\"InlineNewsletter\" data-module-source=\"web_intercept_20241230_Inline_Signup_Replacement\">\n<div class=\"-mx-5 sm:-mx-10 p-5 sm:px-10 xl:-ml-5 lg:mr-0 xl:px-5 bg-accentLight hidden\" data-name=\"subscribed\">\n<h2 class=\"font-sans font-light uppercase text-[30px] leading-8 text-white tracking-[0.01em] mb-0\">\n      We\u2019re independent of corporate interests \u2014 and powered by members. 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Delia Ramirez on Her Efforts to Stop DHS Violence\u00a0<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p><strong>JW: <\/strong>Wednesday evening protests erupted in Minneapolis after <a href=\"https:\/\/www.mprnews.org\/story\/2026\/01\/15\/ice-shooting-minneapolis-minnesota-latest-updates\">ICE shot a man<\/a>, hitting him in the leg. President Donald Trump threatened to invoke the insurrection Act and send troops into the city to crush protests.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Next, I speak to Democratic congresswoman of Illinois, Delia Ramirez, who is introducing a bill that will <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/15\/ice-bill-violence-minneapolis\/\">limit the use of force by Department of Homeland Security agents<\/a>. This is our conversation.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Can you walk me through the bill that you\u2019re introducing and why?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Delia Ramirez:<\/strong> The bill that I\u2019m introducing, Jessica, is called \u201cThe DHS Use of Force Oversight Act.\u201d And it\u2019s a bill that actually codifies that the Department of Homeland Security must have a use of force policy that really also focuses on deescalation.<\/p>\n<p>What you and I have been seeing around the country \u2014 not just last Wednesday \u2014 since the Trump administration took power is this brute, savage attack of our communities and this undermining of rule of law by ICE agents.<\/p>\n<p>Because in reality, there isn\u2019t any real use of force policy that is being followed by this administration. After what happened on Wednesday, so many of us knew that a use of force policy needed to be codified from this body as quickly as possible, which is what this bill does, but it\u2019s not just creating a policy. It also clearly and consistently specifies that there has to be deescalation as the preferred method of engagement.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And I think the second piece of it, Jessica, that I think is so important, is that it also establishes a review committee to ensure that agents are in fact being trained. You and I both know \u2014 we have no idea where these agents are coming from. Have they been with the agency for 10 years? Did they get hired last week at <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/09\/24\/dhs-ice-recruitment-hiring-expo\/\">one of their little gatherings<\/a> that they do or via online? They\u2019re not really doing background checks. So this actually establishes a review committee, making sure that agents are in fact being trained and following the techniques that promote public safety over violence and harm.<\/p>\n<p>And then the third part of it: It requires DHS publish a report every six months, including the data of every use of force incident for transparency and accountability. We know that even under the Biden administration in 2023, the GA under-reported many incidents within the administration then. So for us, it\u2019s really important that we\u2019re doing it every six months and that that report is being published for us to be able to see what in fact is happening on the ground.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> What does the agency currently say about use of force and what agents are allowed to do and what accountability metrics do exist?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR:<\/strong> I would say that most of us would argue that there\u2019s no accountability metrics right now. That what ends up happening is, an agent harasses, beats, shoots, and kills an individual \u2014 whether it\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/interactive\/2025\/09\/23\/us\/ice-shooting-chicago-video.html\">Silverio Villegas-Gonzalez<\/a> in Chicago, or Renee in Minnesota \u2014 and then immediately what you\u2019re seeing in terms of use of force policy is whatever Donald Trump puts on Twitter. Or whatever lie DHS is putting on their own social media platforms, which is some BS argument identifying a victim as a domestic terrorist and then justifying whatever the agent did.\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cWhat you\u2019re seeing in terms of use of force policy is whatever Donald Trump puts on Twitter.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>We know that there are some protocols, specifically protocols like an agent does not get in front of a moving vehicle. An agent is not supposed to shoot at a moving vehicle, especially if it knows the person driving does not have a weapon. There\u2019s a lot of that. But when you actually talk about how they\u2019re supposed to engage, there\u2019s not really a use of force policy being enforced.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>We know that in 2023, under [Alejandro] Mayorkas, the administration itself had begun discretionary accounts to establish some use of force policy. But also we know that when we leave it to the administration, this administration, whether it is the president\u2019s administration or the Department of Homeland Security under Kristi Noe \u2014 whatever\u2019s internal changes immediately as needed for them. Which is exactly why for us, we need to codify what that actually looks like by Congress, and then we have to have the systems in place to ensure that they\u2019re following protocol and then getting the reports when in fact they\u2019re violating it, so that we can ultimately hold them accountable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> You know the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2018\/06\/27\/abolish-ice-alexandria-ocasio-cortez\/\">abolish ICE movement<\/a> has started to pick up some steam, is it enough to restrain ICE from using excessive force, or is more needed?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR:<\/strong> Look, this bill here, \u201cThe DHS use of Force Oversight Act\u201d bill, in my opinion, is the bare minimum. It\u2019s basically stating that like every other law enforcement entity, there must be a use of force policy that is not just in the books but trained, implemented, and used for accountability in the future. The bill itself has a number of details, right? Use only the amount of force that is objectively reasonable. We can argue back and forth what that means. It clearly and consistently specifies that deescalation is preferred, and they should really move and create the tactics for deescalation. It requires law enforcement officers to complete initial required training, which we know agents are not doing now. Prohibition of chokeholds, and the list goes on with this policy.\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThis is not controversial. This is what every other enforcement agency is using.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>So when I say that to you, what I mean is, this is not controversial. This is what every other enforcement agency is using, and ICE or CBP, since they\u2019re entering our cities, should not be excluded from it. And I mean that every single Democrat and every single Republican should be able to sign on to this bill because it\u2019s basic \u2014 bare minimum. And not signing on is indicating that you\u2019re OK with what\u2019s happening on the streets.<\/p>\n<p>Now let\u2019s separate from a very specific policy reform that I\u2019m looking at through this bill. I still think that we need to hold the administration accountable. I still think that members of Congress need to use the appropriation process right now to ensure that not one more dollar goes to this agency without significant concrete policies.<\/p>\n<p>You know that for me, ultimately, what I want to see is defund ICE. Ultimately, what I really want is to start dismantling the Department of Homeland Security. It has not been around that long. It\u2019s been 20 something years that they\u2019ve been around. It was <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2021\/09\/10\/immigration-enforcement-homeland-security-911\/\">formed after 9\/11<\/a>, and ICE enforcement was happening under other purviews, and so was other entities like the Coast Guard. And then TSA, of course, as we know, was created after that as well.<\/p>\n<p>This agency was designed, created intentionally in this particular way so that it gives them the massive latitude necessary to do whatever they want in the name of protecting us from domestic terrorism. Which is why strategically you hear Kristi Noem, the president, Tricia [McLaughlin], the assistant secretary, all calling victims \u2014 victims attacked and harmed by ICE \u2014 domestic terrorists. Because as long as they can call them domestic terrorists, they think that they can have impunity, qualified immunity, and kill and then lie about it.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So what that means is, I want to use the appropriation process to hold money from DHS. I want to see real reforms long-term. I want to work on <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2020\/07\/30\/dismantle-homeland-security\/\">dismantling DHS<\/a>. We need to <a href=\"https:\/\/robinkelly.house.gov\/media-center\/press-releases\/rep-kelly-introduces-articles-impeachment-against-secretary-noem\">impeach Kristi Noem<\/a>, and then we need to hold her accountable as well.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThis agency was designed \u2026 so that it gives them the massive latitude necessary to do whatever they want in the name of protecting us from domestic terrorism.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Why do you think that your Democratic colleagues are so resistant \u2014 in many ways \u2014 to tackling this issue in a broader way? We\u2019ve obviously seen resistance to abolish ICE, to defunding DHS. What do you think that resistance is based in?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR:<\/strong> Jessica, I think sometimes the resistance is based on fear, and this moment shows us that our constituents are demanding moral courage and moral clarity. If our responsibility is to represent our constituents, \u2014 whether it\u2019s in Chicago, in New Orleans, in Louisville, Kentucky or if it\u2019s in Portland, Oregon, and the list goes on \u2014 it\u2019s to represent them, to fight for every single resource they need to thrive, and to protect them and uphold the Constitution.<\/p>\n<p>Department of Homeland Security has demonstrated lawlessness. They\u2019re operating unaccountable. They\u2019re violating the Constitution. And they are creating chaos and fear and potential death in every single city that they walk into.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThe biggest organization of terror in this moment is the Department of Homeland Security.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>And so my colleagues have struggled with the fear, of what does that mean? Does this mean <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/02\/02\/open-borders-immigration-book\/\">open borders<\/a>? What does this mean? Are constituents going to vote me out because I\u2019m being critical of an agency that was created after 9\/11? Am I not demonstrating that I\u2019m defending them from terrorism? Well, the biggest organization of terror in this moment is the Department of Homeland Security.<\/p>\n<p>We are not <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2018\/07\/10\/abolish-ice-movement-democrats\/\">where we were in 2018<\/a>. The movement is not where it was in 2018. Thirty-five people have died under the Department of Homeland Security since Donald Trump became president again last year. A U.S. citizen was shot in the face three times, and they\u2019re threatening to kill all over the country and then lie about it.<\/p>\n<p>When 46 percent of consistent polls of U.S. citizens are talking about abolishing \u2014 not even defund, abolishing \u2014 it really forces members of Congress to ask themselves, \u201cWhat are we doing about this agency that is lawless and creating fear and killing people around the country in the name of protecting us from the threats to the homeland?\u201d And so I really think that this is a moment of real moral reckoning for my colleagues, whether they\u2019re Democrats or Republicans.<\/p>\n<p>This agency isn\u2019t operating FEMA the way it needs to. It\u2019s not providing the resource and supports the Coast Guard needs in the way it needs to. It\u2019s actually taking their money and moving them to ICE enforcement. They\u2019re sending these ICE agents untrained, sending them to create the kind of havoc, the kind of chaos into cities that people are worried and fearful of leaving their home for.<\/p>\n<p>And at the same time, they\u2019re giving all these <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/07\/10\/corecivic-trump-big-beautiful-bill\/\">contracts to Donald Trump\u2019s campaign donors <\/a>so that they can become filthy rich at the expense of imprisoning and letting human beings die in prison.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>So, yes, things may have felt different, and maybe they were in some ways, but some of us knew that this agency \u2014 in its inception \u2014 was created to do what it\u2019s doing now. It is the biggest threat to the homeland, and we need to dismantle it immediately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Those were all of my questions, but is there anything that I didn\u2019t ask you that you wanted to say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR:<\/strong> You heard me talk a lot about the Department of Homeland Security, how it was created. I think more and more of us are going to start talking about what this means. Of course, we need to fund TSA; of course we need to fund the Coast Guard. FEMA needs resources. And we\u2019ve seen what happens when negligent leaders like Kristi Noem are at the helm of DHS.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>There are ways to fund these important programs, but they can\u2019t be funded under an agency that steals the money from these programs and puts them to put these criminals on the street, these thugs on the street to kill our constituents and American citizens. So where there\u2019s a will, we create the solutions, but we have to have the will to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>[Break]<\/strong><\/p>\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-journalist-adam-serwer-and-historian-adam-goodman-on-how-trump-is-unleashing-his-partisan-militia-on-immigrants-and-his-ideological-enemies-nbsp\"><strong>Journalist Adam Serwer and Historian Adam Goodman on How<\/strong> <strong>Trump Is Unleashing His Partisan Militia on Immigrants and His Ideological Enemies\u00a0<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/Acyn\/status\/2010887577960923397?s=20\"><strong>Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez<\/strong><\/a>: The cuts to your health care are what\u2019s paying for this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW: <\/strong>That\u2019s Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez speaking to <a href=\"https:\/\/x.com\/EricMGarcia\/status\/2010898863062917407\">reporters<\/a> earlier this week.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AOC: <\/strong>So understand how these dots connect. You get screwed over to pay a bunch of thugs in the street that are shooting mothers in the face.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:\u00a0<\/strong>Back in 2018, the then-House candidate won the New York City Democratic primary on a progressive platform that included calling for <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2018\/06\/27\/abolish-ice-alexandria-ocasio-cortez\/\">abolishing ICE<\/a>. In response to Trump\u2019s first term policies \u2014 such as family separation \u2014 the movement gained <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2018\/07\/10\/abolish-ice-movement-democrats\/\">modest momentum <\/a>among Democrats. But it was largely seen as too risky and too radical to completely eliminate the agency.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Now though the calls to abolish ICE are <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nbcnews.com\/politics\/immigration\/abolish-ice-democratic-messaging-rcna245657\">back<\/a> \u2014 perhaps stronger than ever as the Trump administration\u2019s violent immigration raids terrorize communities across the country.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Could backlash to Trump\u2019s deportation agenda actually lead to real change? Joining me now to break it all down are two guests.<\/p>\n<p>Adam Goodman is the author of \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/press.princeton.edu\/books\/paperback\/9780691204208\/the-deportation-machine\">The Deportation Machine: America\u2019s Long History of Expelling Immigrants<\/a>.\u201d He\u2019s a <a href=\"https:\/\/hist.uic.edu\/profiles\/goodman-adam\/\">historian<\/a> at\u00a0the University of Illinois Chicago.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to the show, Adam Goodman.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Adam Goodman: <\/strong>Thank you, Jessica.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW: <\/strong>Also joining us is the author of \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/bookshop.org\/p\/books\/the-cruelty-is-the-point-the-past-present-and-future-of-trump-s-america-adam-serwer\/231e4abf7407a4cf?ean=9780593230824&amp;next=t&amp;next=t&amp;affiliate=12476\">The Cruelty is the Point<\/a>\u201d and staff writer at the Atlantic, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theatlantic.com\/author\/adam-serwer\/\">Adam Serwer<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to the show Adam Serwer.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>Adam Serwer:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> According to <a href=\"https:\/\/www.forbes.com\/sites\/mikestunson\/2026\/01\/13\/more-americans-now-want-ice-abolished-a-stark-change-since-trump-took-office\/\">polling <\/a>from The Economist and YouGov, more Americans support abolishing ICE than keeping it. Adam Goodman, I want to start with you. What do you make of this shift?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> One of the things that\u2019s really interesting about public opinion polling on immigration is that it\u2019s held pretty consistent over time of U.S. citizens and people in the country being in favor of immigrants. It was a relatively recent shift in the lead up to the 2024 election against immigrants and against ongoing immigration, in part because of the campaign that Donald Trump launched to scapegoat immigrants \u2014 use them for <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/09\/11\/kamala-harris-debate-immigration\/\">his own political gain<\/a>. And what we\u2019ve seen since Trump has come into office in the past year is that public opinion polling has shifted again, and response to the cruelty and response to the really draconian actions that the administration has taken against not only immigrants, but also citizens and <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/15\/mahmoud-khalil-ice-detention\/\">permanent residents<\/a> and many others.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Adam Serwer, I want to turn to you. Does this type of polling change the political calculus for Democrats when it comes to either reining in or abolishing ICE altogether?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> [Sighs.] That question is difficult to answer because you\u2019d have to ask the Democratic Party, but the reality is that this is a paramilitary armed force that is essentially a partisan militia that is being deployed as an armed force, that is at war with the parts of the country that did not support Donald Trump as much as he deems necessary.<\/p>\n<p>So we talk about ICE in the context of immigration, but I think as we\u2019ve seen over the past few weeks, ever since these deployments started, this is really a war against the \u201cblue\u201d parts of the country. And I hesitate to describe them that way because that\u2019s really un-nuanced. The fact is, the country does not look like an electoral map in terms of, every community has both types of people in it.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThese people have a definition of American that excludes people who do not agree with them ideologically.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>But fundamentally this is not really about immigration. And it\u2019s not just about immigration in the sense of who is a citizen and who is not. These people have a definition of American that excludes people who do not agree with them ideologically. And so the violence that you\u2019re seeing that federal agents are engaging in against observers, against activists, not just against immigrants, is a reflection of that ideological worldview. Which is that those of us who do not agree with Donald Trump are not real Americans and are not entitled to the rights that are due us in the Constitution, whether or not we have citizenship.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> I want to push on this a little bit more. As you\u2019ve said, there\u2019s essentially a war on blue states, and it\u2019s more complicated than that. But why do you think we\u2019re not seeing Democrats push really hard against that, against not just this war on immigrants, but as you pointed out, this war on states where they\u2019re in power?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> Not just states, cities. They sent ICE, federal agents to Memphis. I hesitate to say ICE because people say ICE when they both mean ICE and the Border Patrol. These are essentially people who are used to the subjects that they\u2019re dealing with treating them as non-persons. So it\u2019s not really a surprise that they\u2019re also treating citizens as non-persons because we have given them license to treat immigrants, essentially as non-persons with no rights they need to respect. And so now that they\u2019re treating Americans who are perceived as liberal that way.\u00a0<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-left\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cMost Americans have been alive longer than ICE has existed.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>I think Democrats are apprehensive because the backlash against the 2020 Black rights protest was so profound in the \u201canti-woke\u201d backlash, which I believe was really driven by anti-integration sentiment in white-collar workplaces \u2014 in particular, in the public-facing jobs like the media.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>They are concerned with the agenda-setting power of the American right and the reactionary elements within the media industry to define the terms of debate. So if they go against ICE, which has not existed for very long \u2014 most Americans have been alive longer than ICE has existed \u2014 they\u2019re concerned that they\u2019re going to be dealing with another \u201cabolish the police\u201d backlash. But the truth is, a democracy cannot exist when it has an armed uniformed federal agency who believes that its job is to brutalize 50 percent of the country.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThey are concerned with the agenda-setting power of the American right and the reactionary elements within the media industry to define the terms of debate. \u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> What we\u2019re seeing now is also a result of the Democrats\u2019 inaction and actually decision to avoid immigration, in part as a result of the polling. To go back to your first question, the polling that the Biden administration followed and that other administrations before Biden on the Democratic side followed, was that immigration was a toxic issue, it wasn\u2019t going to help them come election time. And kind of they ignored it \u2014 hoped it would go away. The Trump campaign and the administration has <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2024\/09\/24\/immigrants-migrants-language-harris-trump\/\">capitalized on that since<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>But I think there\u2019s actually an opportunity here for Democrats to stake out some new ground. I mean, if there was ever a chance for Democrats to stake out new ground, it was 2016 and then again 2024, to distinguish themselves from the Trump administration. They did that to an extent on the campaign trail. But after assuming power, Joe Biden <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2021\/04\/18\/biden-border-patrol-asylum-title-42\/\">kept at arm\u2019s length <\/a>when it came to immigration. And that was a missed opportunity, I think, for all kinds of reasons \u2014 political, certainly, but also moral and ethical.<\/p>\n<p>One thing I\u2019ll just add, a brief anecdote, is that I had a chance to speak with a group of about 20 congressional Democrats in 2020. And this was the height of the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/collections\/protests-for-black-lives\/\">protest for Black Lives Matter <\/a>after the killing of George Floyd and the Abolish ICE, abolish the police movement.<\/p>\n<p>And I mentioned just the word \u201cabolition\u201d or \u201cabolish,\u201d and was quickly shut down by the group. And I think that\u2019s actually both understandable on the one hand from an elected official who sees that there\u2019s no political possibility there, but a real miscalculation and that we\u2019ve seen how far things have moved to the restriction side of the ledger.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve seen what\u2019s politically possible now. And how what was seen as extremist in the past is now a centrist opinion when it comes to immigration. So if we\u2019re ever going to move back in the direction of a more humane immigration policy in this country, I think that we need more radical ideas on the table \u2014 regardless of whether or not they come to fruition.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> Yeah, I think it\u2019s important to remember the immigration situation when Joe Biden took office was that there was a surge in migration at the border because of the post-Covid economic recovery, which in the United States was the strongest in the Western world. And so you had a big demand for labor, and you had a lot of people who, for other geopolitical reasons, wanted to come here and work.<\/p>\n<p>That created an anti-immigrant sentiment that, along with, what they call thermostatic public opinion, that provided an opportunity for the Trump administration. I\u2019m not a campaign adviser, I can\u2019t give political advice in that sense. But I think what should be very clear to all Americans now is that there is no way to wage war on \u201cillegal immigration\u201d without also waging war on American citizens.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cThere is no way to wage war on \u2018illegal immigration\u2019 without also waging war on American citizens.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>And they understood that from the beginning. And that\u2019s precisely why they wanted this war in the first place, because they wanted to reshape the country in a very narrow right-wing image of what an American is \u2014 which is a <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/02\/22\/trump-dei-christians-woke-civil-rights\/\">white Christian conservative<\/a>, with a few token minorities who will provide an alibi for the racial nature of their redefinition of American citizenship.<\/p>\n<p>But the truth is that they consider anyone who is ideologically opposed to them an enemy, and that that person can be subject to violence \u2014 political violence at the hands of armed agents of the state. And you could see that in the way that they\u2019re talking about Renee Good in the aftermath of her shooting by a federal agent saying, she was an agitator, or she was an activist, or she was protesting.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote has-text-align-right\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cTheir mandate is to terrorize communities that they see as insufficiently pro-Trump.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p>What that means is if you express the wrong ideological views or you act on the wrong political views, the state has a right to execute you. Now that is not freedom under any definition. They simply do not care whether or not you are an immigrant or not. Their mandate is to terrorize communities that they see as insufficiently pro-Trump.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> You know, George Floyd was murdered by a police officer just miles from where an ICE agent fatally shot Renee Good. \u201cDefund the police\u201d was <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2020\/12\/07\/defund-police-qualified-immunity\/\">widely maligned<\/a> by established Democrats as a political grenade. It was <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2021\/09\/24\/police-reform-bill-democrats\/\">never adopted<\/a> by mainstream or establishment Democrats. Do we think the \u201cAbolish ICE\u201d movement will hit some of those same political roadblocks, or do you think there\u2019s more appetite for limiting funding to ICE than there is from relocating funding from police departments?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> I think there is, and I think because there\u2019s a middle road here, right? It\u2019s possible to have a democracy with policing. It\u2019s possible to have a democracy with immigration enforcement. What you cannot have is an armed \u2014 federally armed \u2014 taxpayer-funded partisan militia that is at war with half the population because they\u2019re insufficiently conservative.<\/p>\n<p>You cannot have a democracy with an agency \u2014 a rogue agency \u2014 like that. And I think that\u2019s what American history says. Like in some sense, it feels a little bit like we\u2019re going through Redemption after the Civil War, except the federal government is in the place of the Southern white supremacist governments with their aligned paramilitaries.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re a Democrat, maybe you don\u2019t have to say the word \u201cabolish,\u201d but you do have to say that this is not working because these people are violating the fundamental constitutional rights of American citizens, and they can\u2019t continue to do that because that absolutely breaks the consent of the government.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> You know, the Department of Homeland Security and ICE have only existed for a little over two decades, and prior to the Department of Homeland Security, the immigration bureaucracy was called the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2021\/09\/10\/immigration-enforcement-homeland-security-911\/\">Immigration and Naturalization Service<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>That rhetorical shift matters a great deal. And it also points to the fact that part of the immigration bureaucracy has typically, and up until very recently, been meant to provide services to immigrants and to people who are seeking to come to the country. And today, we\u2019ve seen a dramatic shift of the whole bureaucracy being directed at enforcement efforts.<\/p>\n<p>The Trump administration has broken with kind of any past tradition when it comes to how the bureaucracy\u2019s typically operated. And I think that we\u2019re seeing kind of the effects of that. So you have people on the service side of things who are now running de-naturalization campaigns and have quotas that they\u2019re supposed to meet each month in sending potential cases for de-naturalization to the Department of Homeland Security.<\/p>\n<p>And so I think that it\u2019s possible that we could see a kind of a reapportioning of the budget of the Department of Home Security, but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to happen under this administration, certainly.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And the other thing is that as immigration has become really intricately tied to questions of national security, at least that\u2019s what the administration and what politicians often say and that\u2019s been true since September 11, 2001. But even prior to that, it becomes difficult to disentangle enforcement efforts with this fearmongering about the immigrant other posing a national security threat. And politically, I think politicians find that a difficult tightrope to walk.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> Yeah. I want to dig in a little bit more on the history. Can you walk us through how the Department of Homeland Security got to be this massive behemoth, expensive behemoth that it is today on par, not fully on par, but close to the Department of Defense in terms of the amount of spending that we\u2019re putting into this? I\u2019m curious how we got here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> The federal government came to take control over immigration in the late 19th century in 1891. And for a long time, it was under the Department of Labor. Immigration was seen primarily as a question of labor. In 1940 at the start of the Second World War, it moved from the Department of Labor to the Department of Justice. Then after September 11, 2001, it moved to the newly created Department of Homeland Security.<\/p>\n<p>And really, historically, the agency had been underfunded and had been strapped for cash. It was difficult for enforcement efforts to really achieve what their mandate stated. And there was also an incredible amount of corruption, of extortion, of smuggling, and physical, psychological, sexual abuse that agents perpetrated against migrants.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>In the late 1970s \u2014 which I referred to as the dawn of the age of mass expulsion \u2014 around 900,000 people a year were apprehended and deported, from the late 1970s up until the 21st century. And these abuses were very common. People were being beaten, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2019\/01\/12\/border-patrol-history\/\">children were being separated from their parents<\/a>. And family separation was a thing that has a long history as well. Agents sexually abused, raped women who were in their custody. Agents shot migrants. Agents killed migrants.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>What we\u2019re seeing today has a long history, but there\u2019s also some striking differences today, and I think in part because of September 11 and the turn toward the national security state. And in part because Donald Trump has used this as the most successful way for him to accumulate power and to maintain power is the scapegoating of immigrants. And I think that\u2019s something that has resonated with people and it\u2019s worth asking why. Why has it resonated with people?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And I think because people have real issues, they have real problems that they\u2019re facing, and instead of actually creating a more sustainable social welfare state to address those problems, the administration finds it much easier to point the finger at immigrants and others.<\/p>\n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\">\n<blockquote>\n<p>\u201cInstead of actually creating a more sustainable social welfare state to address those problems, the administration finds it much easier to point the finger at immigrants and others.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/figure>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> There was a huge backlash to the brutality of immigrant authorities in the 1930s. That led to some reforms. I think the issue here is, to be honest, is that the country went crazy when Barack Obama got elected president.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not a coincidence that Donald Trump started polling as the front-runner in 2011 when he became the country\u2019s biggest birther. Because birtherism was a redefinition of American citizenship that excluded the Black president, whose mere presence was a psychological wound for a lot of white people in America.<\/p>\n<p>Donald Trump has basically ridden this madness to a point in which he is shredding the constitutional rights of American citizens in the name of cleansing the country of those that they don\u2019t consider American. And he is perhaps less ideological than Stephen Miller, but he is aware of what Stephen Miller\u2019s ideology is. You know, Trump joked about how Stephen Miller, he\u2019s only gonna be happy when everybody in the country looks like him. And Miller\u2019s like, yeah, that\u2019s right. And we know what that means! And I think there\u2019s an inability to accept that because it\u2019s so at odds with Americans\u2019 definitions of themselves.<\/p>\n<p>But if you look at what\u2019s happening, if you look at like these masked agents who are brutalizing people and killing people, and you don\u2019t recognize that as a violation of everything you claim to stand for as an American, then there\u2019s a real problem.<\/p>\n<p>And I think, just to go back to what Adam was saying about abuses by immigration agents. When you give people power this kind of power, and they are not accountable for that power \u2014<a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/07\/01\/masked-ice-agents-victimization-accountability\/\"> they can hide their identity<\/a>, the federal government is not providing any oversight over their actions \u2014 then you get abuse. That is just human nature. When you are not accountable for abusing your power, you will abuse your power to degrees that are intolerable for those who are being abused because there\u2019s no reason for you to stop. Especially because, to some extent, the people who are doing this are self-selective for having a high tolerance for inflicting pain on other people.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>The entire premise of the American government is supposed to be opposition to arbitrary power, arbitrary tyranny. But that\u2019s all we\u2019re seeing in our streets right now, and it\u2019s up to the people to say, \u201cThis is not what we\u2019re about. We\u2019re not gonna tolerate this.\u201d And to some extent, it\u2019s up to the people\u2019s representatives, especially in the opposition and the Democratic Party, to say, \u201cWe\u2019re not gonna tolerate this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> One of the things that comes to mind listening to Adam is that I got interested in the topic of the history of deportation and trying to understand it actually in the early years of the Obama presidency, trying to make sense of like, how could someone who came into office preaching hope and change also be apprehending and <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2017\/05\/15\/obamas-deportation-policy-was-even-worse-than-we-thought\/\">deporting <\/a>a lot of people?<\/p>\n<p>And it points to the fact that there\u2019s a bipartisan history here, and it\u2019s not to equate the present administration with past administrations. There\u2019s a stark difference. But Democrats and Republicans alike, have overseen mass deportation campaigns throughout U.S. history.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>It speaks to the fact in part of the bureaucratic nature of the Department of Homeland Security, and prior to that, the Immigration and Naturalization Service. If you create an agency within the federal government tasked with enforcing immigration laws whose budget depends on apprehensions, detentions, and deportations, they\u2019re going to try to carry out that task and they have an institutional imperative to do so. That\u2019s going to lead to all kinds of problems, including incredible discretionary authority, as Adam noted, for low-level agents on the street or on the border, and tremendous abuses as a result of people not held to account.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve seen that that\u2019s incredibly problematic and also very difficult to change. So it\u2019s not just the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/07\/10\/corecivic-trump-big-beautiful-bill\/\">capitalist imperatives<\/a>, the racist rhetoric and laws and implementation of the laws, but it\u2019s also the bureaucratic imperatives that have historically driven the deportation machine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> Yeah, as Adam said, the reorganization of the immigration or deportation bureaucracy was done under the Bush administration. But prior to that, it had been substantially expanded by Democratic presidents. And Obama believed that if he was aggressive on deportations that Republicans would come to the table and do an immigration deal. But of course, that didn\u2019t happen. And so instead, you just have a one-way ratchet, where the immigration state gets more and more aggressive, and the people who are hired to enforce those immigration laws become more and more hardened by their mandate, which is solving the problem with the only lever they have, which is force and violence.<\/p>\n<p>I do think there\u2019s probably \u2014 the downturn in migration is also in part because we have shown the world that we are becoming a different type of country, that we are becoming a tyrannical country in which the basic human rights of immigrants and even citizens are not going to be respected by men with badges and guns.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> It\u2019s worth noting that Obama during his presidency, during his two terms, changed in response to pressure from immigrants and advocates and allies. And I think, people who organize on the ground, immigrants themselves first and foremost, and then those working alongside them recognize that they might not be happy with either party, but there is a difference between the two, and Democrats are certainly more susceptible to pressure from below and to moving on this particular issue. And I think that presents political possibilities for future administrations.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong>\u00a0As you\u2019ve both written about extensively, law enforcement agencies spreading racial terror throughout the United States isn\u2019t a new phenomenon, and yet it feels like we constantly go through these cycles of people caring and the energy fizzling out without a bunch of meaningful systemic change. And the cycles of racial violence in the U.S. are obviously particularly notable as we approach Martin Luther King Jr. Day. What would it take to sustain a movement that meaningfully addressed that violence, and do electeds right now have the stomach for it?\u00a0<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> I think these resurgences are built into the contradictions of the American idea, right? You have a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.archives.gov\/founding-docs\/declaration-transcript\">Declaration of Independence<\/a> that says, \u201cWe find these truths self-evident that all men are created equal.\u201d But by the way, the British king is fomenting slave uprisings and leaving us victim to Indian savages. That\u2019s in the Declaration of Independence. Nobody reads past the first paragraph, so we always forget the rest of it.<\/p>\n<p>And then you have this other definition of citizenship rooted in <a href=\"https:\/\/constitution.congress.gov\/browse\/essay\/intro.6-4\/ALDE_00000388\/\">the Reconstruction Amendments<\/a>, which is that we are all Americans, regardless of where you come from, regardless of what your ethnic origin is \u2014 all really are created equal.<\/p>\n<p>And so as a result this back and forth that you\u2019re seeing is a conflict between these two iterations of the American idea. And I\u2019m not sure that there\u2019s ever going to be a final disposition of this conflict, but the reason that it keeps happening is because these are two mutually contradictory ideas of what it means to be an American. Either an American is a white Western Christian, or anybody can be an American. Those two ideas cannot coexist. It can be 80 percent one, and 20 percent the other, but they\u2019re always going to be in conflict. And as long as there are people who adhere to the idea that to be an American is to be white, we\u2019re going to have these reactionary revolutions and backlashes over and over. Particularly against advances in civil rights and equality and things like Black people becoming leaders of the country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> And Adam Goodman, I want to get you in on this too. I interviewed Bernice King a few years back, and she repeated obviously her parents famous line about having to fight for democracy in every generation, to fight against evil in every generation.<\/p>\n<p>But I\u2019m not that old. It can feel a little exhausting how quick the cycles are going. And I guess, how do you see, if not a forever racial harmony, but a real addressing of the violence that we\u2019re experiencing? I want to get your thoughts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> History shows that anyone struggling for equity, justice, really a different world, needs to play the long game.<\/p>\n<p>When it comes to immigration, these battles have taken place in response to horrible things, whether it\u2019s apprehensions, mass raids across the United States, and people trying to defend themselves, their families, and their communities. There\u2019s been a lot of defensive actions taken, but also there\u2019s been a lot of <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/02\/ice-license-plates-database\/\">proactive<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2025\/09\/24\/court-block-instagram-subpoena-ice-border-patrol\/\">offensive actions<\/a> taken by immigrants and advocates and recognizing that perhaps there\u2019ll be some short-term victories, but real change will only happen over the course of longer periods of time and sustained struggle and really keeping the pressure up on elected officials and keeping this issue front and center so that when a moment does emerge, when change, perhaps surprising, perhaps unexpected or thought impossible, presents itself, we can capitalize.<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s very difficult to say exactly when that\u2019ll be, but certainly we see historically that when there have been moments of dramatic change and victories won, and there are many examples of that \u2014 it\u2019s important to remember that, especially, during this dark time, it\u2019s been a result of that sustained pressure and struggle over long periods of time. And not just pressure from below, but also people in power taking action and taking advantage of their positions and their privilege to push forward a new vision for the country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> My pessimistic offering here is that I think the kind of change that Adam is talking about really requires a fracturing of the Republican coalition as it currently exists. The Democratic Party cannot, by force, do it on its own.<\/p>\n<p>You look at things like Reconstruction or the mid-century civil rights movement \u2014 it cannot just be Democrats and liberals saying, \u201cNo, recording an ICE agent is not a death penalty offense.\u201d You need Republicans, to some extent, and obviously not the hard-core MAGA because they\u2019re never going to do that, but to some extent, their rank-and-file Republican voters to have a moment of recognition and to realize that this is not the country that they want to live in.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s going to happen. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s going to happen tomorrow. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s going to happen in four years or five years. But I do think it\u2019s not something that in a two-party system, one party can do on its own. Now, maybe, maybe in a landslide election with a tremendous amount of the veto points built into the system with a majority that\u2019s large enough to overcome those veto points \u2014 maybe. But I don\u2019t actually think that\u2019s in the offering given the division of the country at the moment in terms of the two parties\u2019 coalitions, especially given that Donald Trump won a plurality of the popular vote in the last election.<\/p>\n<p>So to some extent, you need some of the people on the other side to wake up and realize that they don\u2019t want to live in a show-me-your-papers country.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> One thing that\u2019s important to remember is that it\u2019s really helpful to have a common enemy when you\u2019re organizing. Donald Trump has both implemented the harshest most draconian policies in our lifetimes when it comes to immigration. But he\u2019s also brought more people out into the streets, and more people now care about this issue than, I think, have in the recent past, at the very least. And there\u2019s political possibility in that.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And the question of after Trump leaves office, what happens and how to keep that pressure up is one I don\u2019t have the answer to. But I think we saw that happen in 2020, after Biden came to office and things went back to normal, back to the status quo. Which, certainly, I think immigrants weren\u2019t happy about. They wanted broader-scale changes when it comes to the system in which they need to live and navigate.<\/p>\n<p>But there is a real question of what\u2019s going to happen moving forward. And I agree with Adam that it\u2019s not going to be one in which one party can just push through these transformative changes. It\u2019s going to happen when there\u2019s a realignment. And perhaps there will come a breaking point because of public opinion, because of something horrible that happens like we\u2019ve seen recently, and perhaps some Republicans and others, whether it\u2019s voters or elected officials, will peel off.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> We\u2019re running out of time, but I just wanted to give you both a chance to give any final thoughts before we close out. And Adam Serwer, I\u2019ll start with you, and then Adam Goodman, if you could close us out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> Look, I would just emphasize again that as scary as these men are, as scary as this situation is, the people even in authoritarian regimes are the determinant of where things go. If enough people rise up against this, if enough people say this is unacceptable, you can change it. The fact that they have all the guns and the authority to use force and a pliant Supreme Court that will bless whatever the president wants to do \u2014 no matter how nakedly authoritarian or unconstitutional \u2014 the ultimate arbiter of what happens here is the people. You are not helpless. It is actually up to you.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>And they know that. And in part, that\u2019s why they\u2019re trying so hard to demoralize people. And I would just say that people should not be demoralized by the <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/08\/ice-minneapolis-video-killing-shooting\/\">administration\u2019s propaganda efforts<\/a> to make everything seem like they can do whatever they want and they\u2019re all powerful and everybody else is helpless. No, ultimately the American public decides what happens here whether through action or complacency.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> I couldn\u2019t put it better myself. What other option do we have but to fight, but to continue to organize and to struggle? Hope is about bringing about a different world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> We\u2019re going to leave it there. But thank you both so much for joining me on the Intercept Briefing. This was a really important conversation. I\u2019m glad you had it with me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AS:<\/strong> Thank you for having us<\/p>\n<p><strong>AG:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>JW:<\/strong> That does it for this episode.\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>This episode was produced by Laura Flynn. Sumi Aggarwal is our executive producer. Ben Muessig is our editor-in-chief. Maia Hibbett is our Managing Editor. Chelsey B. Coombs is our social and video producer. Desiree Adib is our booking producer. Fei Liu is our product and design manager. Nara Shin is our copy editor. Will Stanton mixed our show. Legal review by David Bralow.<\/p>\n<p>Slip Stream provided our theme music.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to support our work, you can go to theintercept.com\/join. Your donation, no matter the amount, makes a real difference. If you haven\u2019t already, please subscribe to The Intercept Briefing wherever you listen to podcasts. And leave us a rating or a review, it helps other listeners to find us.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to send us a message, email us at <a href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2026\/01\/16\/trump-abolish-ice-renee-good-jonathan-ross\/mailto:podcasts@theintercept.com\">podcasts@theintercept.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Until next time, I\u2019m Jessica Washington.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<p><script async src=\"\/\/www.instagram.com\/embed.js\"><\/script>#Trumps #War #America<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Immigration and Customs Enforc&hellip; <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":12887,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[246],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12886"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=12886"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12886\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/12887"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=12886"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=12886"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/microvibenews.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=12886"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}